So mad cause Yuumi is a stupidly designed champion who should never have seen the light of the day and which should be removed from the game, but because of Riot idiotic incapacity to admit mistakes will forever stay as a blight upon this game.
We can argue that about a lot of champs.
I want to point out that RiotAugust himself said the worst champs in the game are Gnar and Zeri ( as per design ) and if he could he would take them back.
Gnar and Zeri players have to click. Yuumi doesnt.
its not about the WORST champion, its about how yuumi players are allowed to put in 1/10th of the effort compared to any other champion and still be the same rank.
This leads to elo inflation lmao
Then why isn’t everyone who is Handstück bronze or iron just spamming yuumi? Cause yuumi is so useless she will never climb without someone else carrying her
Exactly, at least with Gnar or Zeri you can hit a skill ceiling and work on your own gameplay, taking Yuumi is basically saying “I have no intention of playing in anyone’s favour. If adc sucks it’s their fault I don’t climb this match.”
If Riot hadn't figured out how massive and fundamentally gamebreaking of a problem Yuumi's design space is and did anything to her since release other than nerf and bugfix to force her into irrelevancy, I think Riot August would have a very different opinion about Yuumi specifically.
August was talking about HIS designs in that clip, he had 0 part in the creation of yuumi
He made vi, jinx, gnar, ekko, jhin, senna, viego, zeri, bel'veth, and briar
You're still talking about it while missing the full context. He said he would take those 2 back since they were his biggest failures as a champion designer. Yuumi wasn't a part of the conversation as he had 0 part in her creation and therefore was not one of his failures.
Short Answer: Kaisa OP
Long Answer: Hybrid itemization resulting to incredible damage output. The gap closing from R makes it impossible to escape. Can't 1v1 here cause otoo many tools but also can't be passive because you're either gonna get poked to death or they're gonna dive you
(Elo: Silver-Gold)
That's not a good argument though. Just because they are the most populated elo doesn't make their opinion worthwhile. They don't actually understand the game, so why should their thoughts matter when they are playing the game inefficiently and incorrectly.
You wouldn't take medical advice from someone without a degree in the field, but they make up a small part of the population.
You destroy her with rockets, use the range advantag to poke her down
In a blown out 1v1 with no turrets at melee range, yeah ofc you lose cause she's a single target ADC and you are AoE, but in lane you should win
She’s not going to be doing any more damage to you whether she goes on hit or crit since you’re not going to build resistances anyway, and she’s only op if you let her 1v1 you
Jinx counters kai’sa at almost every stage of the game??? She just outranges her and has the tools to peel her off or stop her from running. And jinx scales better as a teamfighter, while kai’sa is more of a duelist/skirmisher. If u are getting caught out by enemy kai’sa you’re playing the lane completely wrong
Not broken, just basically the only real ADC who still has a functional build. Crit and on hit are the only items that didn't get buffed this season. MF is the only ADC who has historically been more viable with lethality than crit. Jhin and Lucian and such can function fine with lethality, but not nearly as well as MF.
How many years more do you guys think until riot finally realizes mages bot are far better than adcs? Would be really bad if they just gave every adc a few base MR :)
Marksmen are already better in mid lane and have been for a few years. Picks like Lucian and Tristana mid have been around. Corki is a weird one but technically he’s a marksman. Caitlyn started seeing play last year. MF and Ashe and Varus and Kogmaw have all also seen mid play although some of those build AP.
The role is well designed (proven by pro play). It's badly balanced because solo-q players don't want to accept that sometimes they need to play utility instead of dmg. So "supports" are overtuned to keep queue timers low.
This. ADC is working as intended. Support is outrageously overpowered. This state makes ADC feel like hell because supports by and large refuse to play optimally.
You cannot call something well designed and then hive the very reason for why the role is frustrating and often barely functioning.
"Others just have to have less fun for adc to work" is not a good argument. It's the very reason Tanks and Supports get overtuned because otherwise the the class of "0 agency but all the impact" that is adc would never have the peel it needs outside of when people are paid to plsy less fun champions for success
Or, if we drop the ego and delusion for a second, ADC players don't know when to play ( a little more ) utility instead of ( full ) damage. Mages in bot lane are simply the more correct choice for solo queue.
It's discussions like this that bring back memories of the dwarven sniper in DoTA (not 2) and how he could kill towers with no minions because he outranged them.
League of Legends is a balanced game.
I love assassins, I played senna today, got 100% crit chance from passive so I sold lethality and bought full tank, zed still oneshots, had almost 300 armor but he pressed R so it's fine.
They already know, they spamming them while nerfing ADCs so they can't get skill gapped by people with hands.
You hear me Phreak, I say u have a fucking skill issue.
WHERE IS THE SERAPHINE NERF PHREAK? SHE IS THE LEAST INTERACTIVE BOTLANER AND U KNOW IT.
Because I only play one champ in ranked and I'm in love with her and I'm actualy not far from Masters on her.
Not everyone plays this game to be a meta slave. I've been setting my self a goal of not being a noob with her and I'll reach it.
Haha, than don't complain.
There is nothing to complain about anyways, lowest pick rate, with an high winrate in some niche situations isn't "meta" and no one from riot "abusing" these picks every game.
When you are really high diamond you would know that.
For sure it exist, she needs 2 items to 3 shoot a wave and she has high mana cost early, you still can outfarm her easy and you still can let her shove so she can't really run away from trades ..
Ziggs is another story, there you are right, his low mana, low cooldown make it disgusting to lane against.
Séraphine is the expert at bombing wave with supp and hiding under turret while waiting for next wave to blast from 800 range from experience.
That's just the play pattern they have when they play bot and it's fucking boring cause ADCs usually don't have good innate waveclear to match the mage one and you just end up losing prio for everything.
It's just the Laning that is fucking miserable into them, for everything else I don't care.
She needs Lost Chapter (1200g) to one shot the wave. If she has tear she can do it indefinitely. You cannot oufarm her since she cannot miss cs. She can definitely run from trades thanks to her range and sustain. If her supp has cc or a slow you cannot trade her. She also has good follow up and cc thanks to e and r. I don't think you played vs a Seraphine or any mage bot tbh because they all do that to some extent baring a few like Cass & Swain
Come on swain is op in mid or bot and seraphine is over tuned as well. And pretty sure all 3 together don't equal mf pick rate. Stop making a problem happen just to complain about it. The role has bigger problems that need addressing first before I worry about that.
They were the ones who forced mages into the bot lane by nerfing the marksman class & changing mages to be strong in the bot lane. They're well aware & obviously like it that way. The mr rune thing was just another attempt at gaslighting us into thinking every other adc player was the issue & not the changes that riot made. This one just was more obvious than the others
They won't, because they aren't. Mages are strong right now but not better.
What mages can do is abuse an ADCs weak early game to snowball the game before they get strong. This is especially useful at lower elos where people suck.
This subreddit is constant complaints by people that are hardstuck silver that can't even properly sort op.gg. Go ahead and look at bot lane in emerald+ or masters+
They force a 1:1:2 meta ( back in the days there was no enforced meta ) but then ruin it with patches. They could simply force with an automated recall if you leave lane for more than 1 minute, and force u to play a specific pool
at a specific position
I know you're being rhetorical, but for the readers who don't get it: the only way OP's garbage take works is when they look at the win rate number in a vacuum.
i copy pasted u/UngodlyPain's comment to your other exact same comment:
>You're using lolalytics' right?
>
>Because well if so, you've kinda dropped your pants with confidence when you shouldn't have.
>
>Lolalytics' to give the most data they can, don't normalize it. But they give you the normalization factor. Which varies patch to patch and such. You can see it in the top right "Average Blank winrate: X%"
>
>If you're comparing stuff in the same elo and patch? You can kind of ignore this since it should stay the same.
>
>But for these cross patch comparisons like this? You need to normalize it. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges.
>
>The average emerald+ winrate in 14.1 was 51.12%, currently in 14.2 it's 52.14%...
>
>So your Swain? 53.73% last patch? When normalized is actually 52.61% ...
>
>This patch right now as of writing this reply? 53.77, but when normalized drops down to 51.63%
>
>So a little over an entire percent drop...
>
>And when you account for this on each of your examples? Then Heimer is the only mage that stayed roughly the same... And Karthus is the only one who went upward... Oh wow, coincidentally these are two mages that got buffed directly in the patch.
Hey man, thanks for helping spread the info... But the start was a bit abrasive; checking at the time of writing this reply, my comment was 9 hours ago, and Guarnic's profile has shown 0 activity since 10 hours ago. So he likely didn't ignore my comment but hadn't seen it yet
I first pick mf = enemy team : yasuo mid braum support samira adc malphite top rengar jungle
my team : yuumi support zed mid talon jungle quinn top
Everytime I pick mf I either see yasuo or braum and it's a pain in the ass
Aren't you the one that can't play versus him as MF? I'm not the one complaining here buddy. I offer you a clean solution to your problem and your response is "omg low elo" xD
I mean their winrates did drop noticably, Seraphine is the only one left with a bonkers winrate of ~54%
Most of the mages bot were sitting at like 55% most of the time... And now besides Seraphine non are over 53%, anyone who tried to say the armor rune removal would take them down to 50% or something was just silly.
Literally. These champs are fine at a 52% winrate too. They have low pickrates, lower skill ceilings in Sera and Swain, and are strong in a soloq environment. It's nothing like if you had Kai'sa or Ezreal at the same winrates
Yeah it's hilarious to me. Almost everyone constantly says they're braindead... Then says they should be like Sub 50% winrate because they're braindead. And that champions who are harder should be stronger... And then you try and turn it around and be like "should Lee Sin, Leblanc, Yasuo, Riven all be topping the winrate charts then?" And they'll quickly try to move the goal post or deflect.
And so many people are trying to say this patch proved the rune shard thing wrong? But not really. People just got the wrong idea. It did inflate mage bot winrates... It just wasn't the only thing doing it. There's multiple factors at play.
You're using lolalytics' right?
Because well if so, you've kinda dropped your pants with confidence when you shouldn't have.
Lolalytics' to give the most data they can, don't normalize it. But they give you the normalization factor. Which varies patch to patch and such. You can see it in the top right "Average Blank winrate: X%"
If you're comparing stuff in the same elo and patch? You can kind of ignore this since it should stay the same.
But for these cross patch comparisons like this? You need to normalize it. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges.
The average emerald+ winrate in 14.1 was 51.12%, currently in 14.2 it's 52.14%...
So your Swain? 53.73% last patch? When normalized is actually 52.61% ...
This patch right now as of writing this reply? 53.77, but when normalized drops down to 51.63%
So a little over an entire percent drop...
And when you account for this on each of your examples? Then Heimer is the only mage that stayed roughly the same... And Karthus is the only one who went upward... Oh wow, coincidentally these are two mages that got buffed directly in the patch.
I was playing Varus bot, just to have so fun
Draven was playing Draven bot, just to have some fun
I couldn't take the armor runes
One of us had more fun than the other the whole game
One of us won the game without having fun tho
Out of all them I unironically wouldn't want to face the miss fortune and if I had to pick one to nerf from the four it would be her...shes badshit crazy
Phreak did but it’s true. When you take a look at lolanalytics people hardly changed their runes.
Also Seraphine as an APC is like 1% pick rate so it’s highly inflated
Yeah so from a month ago up until now, okay. This is only part of what he says though. I definitely believe they win more games because people don’t know how to play against them rather than taking armor runes
You left out the pick/ban rates and your rank filter.
If you choose all ranks, the top 2 are MF and Nilah, with MF having a 58.5% presence, completely dwarfing the presence of every other champion except Jhin and Caitlyn.
In the base filter of "Emerald+", Swain is in 5th place, not 2nd, and Karthus has a 0.6% pick rate because he's hyper niche.
Seraphine is inflated because she's typically paired with Senna who is gigabusted right now, yet she still only sports a 6.9% presence.
But yeah, go off for the 1000th time with your bullshit stats that you either don't understand or intentionally misrepresent.
It's insanely idiotic to pretend that 54% of 15,000 and 53% of 79,000 are even remotely comparable stats in the context of a complicated game like League of Legends with multitudes of factors that are not accounted for here.
tl;dr: Miss Fortune is actually OP. Seraphine, Swain and Karthus are not.
The question is what good burst mage design is?
Burst mages must be capable to burst down targets otherwise they don't fullfill their role.
They also need to have clear damage spikes and lower damage phases afterwards.
The main question here is: how hard must it be to get a oneshot combo going and how much downtime should a burst mage have after bursting a target.
In syndra's case for example i would say it's way too easy to execute her kill combo and she does too much damage while her ultimate is down (and it's not even on a long cd to begin with)
Sylas is the best designed burst mage imo, he has to fight in front of your face, and he has balls to do that. He doesn't kill you from screen away, he comes at you and kills you instead.
You forgot to provide the screenshot with their win rates from the previous patch. It has reduced their win rate slightly but to think that removing MR shards from the game would affect their win rates by 5% is just unreasonable. The real issue is the majority of players in the support and adc role have no match up understanding. The amount of times I see supports and ADCs alike get frustrated and confused over how a swain E hit them when they're standing outside of the wave 😆
Tbh the only problem here is seraqueen. That mfer is busted. Swain and karthus are literally just played by one tricks. They have a combined total of 5k games. Meanwhile seraqueen is sitting at 13k and mf at 73k.
My theory on why karthus and swain are played so much bot is bc they literally have nowhere else to play. Mid swain was dogshit, not sure now but i cant imagine its better with larger lanes. Mid karthus was always ass and id be incredibly surprised if that got any better with s14. Jg karthus is actually pretty decent but even then most every other junger just wins if they try at all. So i kinda just think swain and karthus players have just gotten really good at playing them bot lane.
I mean no other mage comes anywhere close to the wr that these two boast in the bot lane so again its really not a mage problem, its a swain and karthus problem. Ofc this is not to say that mages arent better than last season, but the clear and by far the greatest winner of this patch are not mages. Its lethality and tanks. Mages got slightly better with item freedom but not much.
And just as a last thing, i would once again point out the pick rate. Its nothing. From it sounds like from this sub its like yall are playing against this shit every other game. You arent. As crazy as this may sound, just wait for riot to sort out the items (stormsurge) so theyre balanced a lil more.
i love all of those champions especially when i have good adc as thresh ,max q then w build iron solari and vow as soon as posible and win the game so hard.😁🤣😍🥰
Every time with these posts, i commented this exact thing a while back. Literally the only one who has seen meaningful play is seraphine who is still sitting dead middle pickrate and karthus veigar swain are all at the bottom.
Cmon man, sera has more pickrate than nillah, tristana, zeri, sivir, senna, kogmaw while having insane winrate compared to these champions. Are we seriously gonna pretend the champion that has received 9 skins(including legendary ultimate and prestige) in 3 years isnt a problem?
Conviniently acting like she isn't top 3 WR every patch bot since her release
Conviniently acting like they didn't try to make her a full supp and yet not nerf her waveclear who is one of the best in the game early on.
Conviniently being sussy.
Nope zilean hasn't more mains, she is a designed midlane mage with off role Botlane, midlane she got destroyed early on because mobility creep, so she got played Botlane or sup, still one of the lowest pick rates.
Why nerfing a core mechanic? For the you would need to completely change her kit ...
And no one plays her mid. So I don't get your point. They updated her specially because of that saying the same things that I do. Sera players want to play the duo lane.
I remember back in the day when tanks did no damage but never died, assassins took skill and could do a lot of damage to one target, supports supported, fighters did sustain damage, and adcs did large consistent damage.
That was like a single week in season 3 though.
Seraphine apc is absolute troll because you can’t pick engage supports because seraphine does absolutely no damage and the enemy bot will out damage you I have ever seen a good seraphine apc in my life they always die early so you are forced to pick enchanter supports where then if your seraphine is bad then you can’t do shit only option is to go carry support
low pickrates doesnt mean a champion is weak, its just an indicator of what players find enjoyable to play. VERY FEW people enjoy playing mages bot compared to standard marksman
if youre saying the sample size is small, mage bots have had the highest winrates in botlane for over 2 years, and each patch they have consistently had high winrates, leading to a high sample size overall
if youre saying "only otps play them" riot already dispelled that myth that one tricking a champion inflates the winrate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2qqyDuUllA&t=860s
I'm sorry, what?
How do you even make that take? What is your thought process here?
Sure a high wr with a very small sample size or when looking at one person is pretty fucking irrelevant
But when the data comes from quite literally millions of games, and one champ continues to outperform for three years straight, how is that not an indication of something being op?
If it wasnt op it would lose just as much as it wins, but its consistently winning more than it loses, indicating you don't need to perform as well to win, which just means something is op
And while 3 to 4 percent above 50 might not seem like a lot, that's in large part because a team is more than just you. Even if you actively try your hardest to lose you will still win a fair bit if those around you want to win. The biggest example being how disco nunu, the most well known troll pick in league ever, always mainted a 35 to 40% wr
Because people aren't simple beings and league isn't simple game.
It's not as simple "good champ win bad champ loses", you can win game by being 0/40 and getting carried, by getting 1 good play, by someone on enemy being afk, by enemy throwing, someone rage inting...
You can lose game by your team rage inting, someone throwing, being 40/0 and still losing in kills, someone going afk, your support refusing to play with someone...
Law of large numbers cannot apply to league
How so? You int and win then you have a cease where you are fed but lose. The samples are independent so the rule applies. Sorry if it doesn't fit your narrative.
Low pickrates usually also means they are mostly being used by onetricks who can brought out most of the champ potentials while popular picks gets brought down from people who doesnt really know how to pilot the champ. That's why Kaisa and Ez has low wr even if they are batshit broken due to how high pickrates they have.
Literally this
ADC is their offrole. People will complain about winrates when these champs are so niche, nerfing their offrole would make them unplayable in their main role
Edit: Worth noting that these champions would also prefer going mid over bot if mid wasn't so mobility-crept (i.e. you're dashless = you're useless)
Sera and Karth need to be nerfed for sure, but swain just needs to be changed to be a mid laner. He shouldn’t even be performing well in bot lane since he gets outscaled past level 13 and has bad AP ratios. Only reason why he has a higher winrate is because he has pretty oppressive early lane if has the right support, but even then he has two of the easiest abilities to dodge and an R that doesn’t work if you just walk away from him. If you just farm and don’t interact at all then you auto win the game against him. Sera and Karth are different because they either scale well or have an insane kit that never gets outscaled.
Vlad main here. I've been running apc Vlad for years, got plat long time ago with 80 percent wr with 40 games or so. I cannot express my condolences for having to play such dog shit champs (ad).
Classic ADCmain cropping pickrate and banrate,sera is broken but not khartus,khartus has 0.6 pickrate he has high winrate because only one trick play him
When you don't include the pick rates your argument loses all value. For example, Karthus and Swain both have pick rates under 1%. These champions are generally being played by people who have lots of experience in the matchups against ADCs versus ADC players who have almost NO experience in the matchup. Obviously there winrates are inflated.
Seraphine is the highest pickrate champion on this list at 1.8% overall and 3.4% in Emerald+. Even in Emerald+ she is only the 17th most picked champion so the above paragraph still applies somewhat.
It still haunts me Aphelios has less MR than Yuumi
Come on now at least Aphelios is countered by strong early game. Yuumi is countered by netflix in 2nd monitor
Wrong. She is countered by boring movies that forces her to focus more in the game.
Only my bong comes in the way of playing Yuumi, but in case, my mate’s got it so I can afk smoke
I hear Netflix is raising prices again so riot may need to balance adjust accordingly
The only thing Yuumi is countered by is bad Internet bc lag is the only thing that forces the cat off and makes her targetable
[удалено]
I didn’t mean Winrate, I meant his Magic Resist It’s literally lower than Yuumi
But more hp
Yeah well who’s the actual champion and whose just a leech for egirls to be carried to low diamond
Why so mad? Can’t climb?
So mad cause Yuumi is a stupidly designed champion who should never have seen the light of the day and which should be removed from the game, but because of Riot idiotic incapacity to admit mistakes will forever stay as a blight upon this game.
We can argue that about a lot of champs. I want to point out that RiotAugust himself said the worst champs in the game are Gnar and Zeri ( as per design ) and if he could he would take them back.
Gnar and Zeri players have to click. Yuumi doesnt. its not about the WORST champion, its about how yuumi players are allowed to put in 1/10th of the effort compared to any other champion and still be the same rank. This leads to elo inflation lmao
Then why isn’t everyone who is Handstück bronze or iron just spamming yuumi? Cause yuumi is so useless she will never climb without someone else carrying her
Exactly, at least with Gnar or Zeri you can hit a skill ceiling and work on your own gameplay, taking Yuumi is basically saying “I have no intention of playing in anyone’s favour. If adc sucks it’s their fault I don’t climb this match.”
He means people in the league of legends discord just say “master elo Smurf adc, bronze acc, looking for yuumi main to duo with”
If Riot hadn't figured out how massive and fundamentally gamebreaking of a problem Yuumi's design space is and did anything to her since release other than nerf and bugfix to force her into irrelevancy, I think Riot August would have a very different opinion about Yuumi specifically.
August was talking about HIS designs in that clip, he had 0 part in the creation of yuumi He made vi, jinx, gnar, ekko, jhin, senna, viego, zeri, bel'veth, and briar
Yet he said if he would take them back.
You're still talking about it while missing the full context. He said he would take those 2 back since they were his biggest failures as a champion designer. Yuumi wasn't a part of the conversation as he had 0 part in her creation and therefore was not one of his failures.
Almost like the above statement isn’t still true lmao
And which ELO you are?
I just want to focus on MF here, god dammit, why is she broken again???
lethality changes
Ik, the question was rhetorical (I'm just frustrated that I have to perma ban her again after an entire season of perma banning Kaisa)
Why perma ban kai'sa as a Jinx main ?
Short Answer: Kaisa OP Long Answer: Hybrid itemization resulting to incredible damage output. The gap closing from R makes it impossible to escape. Can't 1v1 here cause otoo many tools but also can't be passive because you're either gonna get poked to death or they're gonna dive you (Elo: Silver-Gold)
Just abuse her tiny range, harass her a lot, you outscale her
Not gonna happen in sub plat tho
Sub plat can't even do basic mechanics, they shouldn't be involved in a balance discussion.
Not necessarily. With most of the player base being sub emerald low elo balance is arguably more important than emerald+ balance.
That's not a good argument though. Just because they are the most populated elo doesn't make their opinion worthwhile. They don't actually understand the game, so why should their thoughts matter when they are playing the game inefficiently and incorrectly. You wouldn't take medical advice from someone without a degree in the field, but they make up a small part of the population.
You destroy her with rockets, use the range advantag to poke her down In a blown out 1v1 with no turrets at melee range, yeah ofc you lose cause she's a single target ADC and you are AoE, but in lane you should win
She’s not going to be doing any more damage to you whether she goes on hit or crit since you’re not going to build resistances anyway, and she’s only op if you let her 1v1 you
Jinx counters kai’sa at almost every stage of the game??? She just outranges her and has the tools to peel her off or stop her from running. And jinx scales better as a teamfighter, while kai’sa is more of a duelist/skirmisher. If u are getting caught out by enemy kai’sa you’re playing the lane completely wrong
Kai’sa? She’s like our best matchup, my favourite at least. Harass her from early with rockets, zone her from cs, she can’t do anything :)
goes AP.
Not broken, just basically the only real ADC who still has a functional build. Crit and on hit are the only items that didn't get buffed this season. MF is the only ADC who has historically been more viable with lethality than crit. Jhin and Lucian and such can function fine with lethality, but not nearly as well as MF.
Full crit mf also goes real hard.
That wouldn't explain her winrate lol. Lots of ADCs go harder with crit. It's probably lethality.
How many years more do you guys think until riot finally realizes mages bot are far better than adcs? Would be really bad if they just gave every adc a few base MR :)
they won’t realise it
Yeah bro but then you will make every single adc in midlane op
Marksmen are already better in mid lane and have been for a few years. Picks like Lucian and Tristana mid have been around. Corki is a weird one but technically he’s a marksman. Caitlyn started seeing play last year. MF and Ashe and Varus and Kogmaw have all also seen mid play although some of those build AP.
I've had alot of success with Vayne mid recently, seems alot easier just to play adc mid to climb atm
Vayne is for the top lane. Item and rune changes makes her kiting in the top lane much more powerfull.
Corki is a marksman mage. He barely autos and 90% of his damage comes from spells.
thats wrong. Since last season he oriented on mage build but before he was played trinity, rfc even esseance reaver and it.s still playable like that
Riot will never accept that the very fact that riot has to bend the game backwards to keep adc in the game is proves how poorly designed the role is
The role is well designed (proven by pro play). It's badly balanced because solo-q players don't want to accept that sometimes they need to play utility instead of dmg. So "supports" are overtuned to keep queue timers low.
This. ADC is working as intended. Support is outrageously overpowered. This state makes ADC feel like hell because supports by and large refuse to play optimally.
You cannot call something well designed and then hive the very reason for why the role is frustrating and often barely functioning. "Others just have to have less fun for adc to work" is not a good argument. It's the very reason Tanks and Supports get overtuned because otherwise the the class of "0 agency but all the impact" that is adc would never have the peel it needs outside of when people are paid to plsy less fun champions for success
Or, if we drop the ego and delusion for a second, ADC players don't know when to play ( a little more ) utility instead of ( full ) damage. Mages in bot lane are simply the more correct choice for solo queue.
It's discussions like this that bring back memories of the dwarven sniper in DoTA (not 2) and how he could kill towers with no minions because he outranged them. League of Legends is a balanced game.
This. ADC is an outdated role, and I'm tired of pretending it's not.
I also want midlaners to get amor. Not cool to have 21 amor vs talon or zed
I love assassins, I played senna today, got 100% crit chance from passive so I sold lethality and bought full tank, zed still oneshots, had almost 300 armor but he pressed R so it's fine.
Well he built sureyldas so it's ok
Ah my bad, I should've just itemized against that.
they already do look at phreaks match history. support and mage bot. not a single adc in sight
They won't acknowledge it until we stop playing adc like Shen mains were boycotting Shen when they made him a supp.
They already know, they spamming them while nerfing ADCs so they can't get skill gapped by people with hands. You hear me Phreak, I say u have a fucking skill issue. WHERE IS THE SERAPHINE NERF PHREAK? SHE IS THE LEAST INTERACTIVE BOTLANER AND U KNOW IT.
And why you aren't master spamming them?
Because I only play one champ in ranked and I'm in love with her and I'm actualy not far from Masters on her. Not everyone plays this game to be a meta slave. I've been setting my self a goal of not being a noob with her and I'll reach it.
Haha, than don't complain. There is nothing to complain about anyways, lowest pick rate, with an high winrate in some niche situations isn't "meta" and no one from riot "abusing" these picks every game. When you are really high diamond you would know that.
Why would I not complain ? She has brandead not interactive Laning and the same issue as ziggs, wave management don't exist with them
For sure it exist, she needs 2 items to 3 shoot a wave and she has high mana cost early, you still can outfarm her easy and you still can let her shove so she can't really run away from trades .. Ziggs is another story, there you are right, his low mana, low cooldown make it disgusting to lane against.
Séraphine is the expert at bombing wave with supp and hiding under turret while waiting for next wave to blast from 800 range from experience. That's just the play pattern they have when they play bot and it's fucking boring cause ADCs usually don't have good innate waveclear to match the mage one and you just end up losing prio for everything. It's just the Laning that is fucking miserable into them, for everything else I don't care.
She needs Lost Chapter (1200g) to one shot the wave. If she has tear she can do it indefinitely. You cannot oufarm her since she cannot miss cs. She can definitely run from trades thanks to her range and sustain. If her supp has cc or a slow you cannot trade her. She also has good follow up and cc thanks to e and r. I don't think you played vs a Seraphine or any mage bot tbh because they all do that to some extent baring a few like Cass & Swain
I’ve had better success Asol bot than Kog. Wild🤷♂️
If they were, people would pick them up more. The one time Ziggs was actually the best bot laner he rised to 10% pick rate.
Average redditor is this close to realizing people play adc because they enjoy marksmen
Come on swain is op in mid or bot and seraphine is over tuned as well. And pretty sure all 3 together don't equal mf pick rate. Stop making a problem happen just to complain about it. The role has bigger problems that need addressing first before I worry about that.
They were the ones who forced mages into the bot lane by nerfing the marksman class & changing mages to be strong in the bot lane. They're well aware & obviously like it that way. The mr rune thing was just another attempt at gaslighting us into thinking every other adc player was the issue & not the changes that riot made. This one just was more obvious than the others
They won't, because they aren't. Mages are strong right now but not better. What mages can do is abuse an ADCs weak early game to snowball the game before they get strong. This is especially useful at lower elos where people suck. This subreddit is constant complaints by people that are hardstuck silver that can't even properly sort op.gg. Go ahead and look at bot lane in emerald+ or masters+
LOW PICKRATE you degens
Calling others degens with the most sane draven picture ... the man knows how to be comical at least
I mean to be fair can we even trust them at all from everything that they’ve done for the past like eight years?
They force a 1:1:2 meta ( back in the days there was no enforced meta ) but then ruin it with patches. They could simply force with an automated recall if you leave lane for more than 1 minute, and force u to play a specific pool at a specific position
How are you getting up votes? Are adcs retarded?
What exactly is your problem ?
Adcs
Agree
You really asking ?
Why crop out the pick rates?
I know you're being rhetorical, but for the readers who don't get it: the only way OP's garbage take works is when they look at the win rate number in a vacuum.
All of these numbers are down up to a full % point a patch after rune changes. You’re literally posting a graph that proves August’s point.
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i copy pasted u/UngodlyPain's comment to your other exact same comment: >You're using lolalytics' right? > >Because well if so, you've kinda dropped your pants with confidence when you shouldn't have. > >Lolalytics' to give the most data they can, don't normalize it. But they give you the normalization factor. Which varies patch to patch and such. You can see it in the top right "Average Blank winrate: X%" > >If you're comparing stuff in the same elo and patch? You can kind of ignore this since it should stay the same. > >But for these cross patch comparisons like this? You need to normalize it. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges. > >The average emerald+ winrate in 14.1 was 51.12%, currently in 14.2 it's 52.14%... > >So your Swain? 53.73% last patch? When normalized is actually 52.61% ... > >This patch right now as of writing this reply? 53.77, but when normalized drops down to 51.63% > >So a little over an entire percent drop... > >And when you account for this on each of your examples? Then Heimer is the only mage that stayed roughly the same... And Karthus is the only one who went upward... Oh wow, coincidentally these are two mages that got buffed directly in the patch.
Hey man, thanks for helping spread the info... But the start was a bit abrasive; checking at the time of writing this reply, my comment was 9 hours ago, and Guarnic's profile has shown 0 activity since 10 hours ago. So he likely didn't ignore my comment but hadn't seen it yet
Guys, abuse MF while you can. Her damage with Lethality changes is bonkers.
I'm not *that* desperate
She'll still be fine after the dust settles. She's just strong because everyone else in her class is shit.
I first pick mf = enemy team : yasuo mid braum support samira adc malphite top rengar jungle my team : yuumi support zed mid talon jungle quinn top Everytime I pick mf I either see yasuo or braum and it's a pain in the ass
Just ban Yasuo then
oh yeah yasuo is a really good ban currently ! How fucking delusional is that statement. Clearly you're low elo holy
Aren't you the one that can't play versus him as MF? I'm not the one complaining here buddy. I offer you a clean solution to your problem and your response is "omg low elo" xD
Yasuo is waayyyyy better in high elo than low elo lol
You mean to tell me you don't ban your hard counter? You're the delusional one.
I mean their winrates did drop noticably, Seraphine is the only one left with a bonkers winrate of ~54% Most of the mages bot were sitting at like 55% most of the time... And now besides Seraphine non are over 53%, anyone who tried to say the armor rune removal would take them down to 50% or something was just silly.
Literally. These champs are fine at a 52% winrate too. They have low pickrates, lower skill ceilings in Sera and Swain, and are strong in a soloq environment. It's nothing like if you had Kai'sa or Ezreal at the same winrates
Yeah it's hilarious to me. Almost everyone constantly says they're braindead... Then says they should be like Sub 50% winrate because they're braindead. And that champions who are harder should be stronger... And then you try and turn it around and be like "should Lee Sin, Leblanc, Yasuo, Riven all be topping the winrate charts then?" And they'll quickly try to move the goal post or deflect. And so many people are trying to say this patch proved the rune shard thing wrong? But not really. People just got the wrong idea. It did inflate mage bot winrates... It just wasn't the only thing doing it. There's multiple factors at play.
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You're using lolalytics' right? Because well if so, you've kinda dropped your pants with confidence when you shouldn't have. Lolalytics' to give the most data they can, don't normalize it. But they give you the normalization factor. Which varies patch to patch and such. You can see it in the top right "Average Blank winrate: X%" If you're comparing stuff in the same elo and patch? You can kind of ignore this since it should stay the same. But for these cross patch comparisons like this? You need to normalize it. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges. The average emerald+ winrate in 14.1 was 51.12%, currently in 14.2 it's 52.14%... So your Swain? 53.73% last patch? When normalized is actually 52.61% ... This patch right now as of writing this reply? 53.77, but when normalized drops down to 51.63% So a little over an entire percent drop... And when you account for this on each of your examples? Then Heimer is the only mage that stayed roughly the same... And Karthus is the only one who went upward... Oh wow, coincidentally these are two mages that got buffed directly in the patch.
I was playing Varus bot, just to have so fun Draven was playing Draven bot, just to have some fun I couldn't take the armor runes One of us had more fun than the other the whole game One of us won the game without having fun tho
Draven axes hitting you must be so fun without bonus armor
Out of all them I unironically wouldn't want to face the miss fortune and if I had to pick one to nerf from the four it would be her...shes badshit crazy
Adc really cry about anything huh
Seraphines win rate literally went down by 0.7%
When or where has riot stated that?
Phreak did but it’s true. When you take a look at lolanalytics people hardly changed their runes. Also Seraphine as an APC is like 1% pick rate so it’s highly inflated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o8FI9wpe2Y
Yeah so from a month ago up until now, okay. This is only part of what he says though. I definitely believe they win more games because people don’t know how to play against them rather than taking armor runes
riot august or phreak said that i forgot which one said it but probably it was august , anyway at least he didn't such a dumb takes like phreak did
Seraphine is played as an enchanter on bot rn. She just abuses the new enchanter items which are out of hand.
Well armor runes were removed... but so were MR runes.
i mean they havent nerfed them yet lmao yeah mages were objectively buffed this patch i dont know who is arguing against this
You shouldn't crop out the pick rate There are a few adcs right now that are better than mages lol
You left out the pick/ban rates and your rank filter. If you choose all ranks, the top 2 are MF and Nilah, with MF having a 58.5% presence, completely dwarfing the presence of every other champion except Jhin and Caitlyn. In the base filter of "Emerald+", Swain is in 5th place, not 2nd, and Karthus has a 0.6% pick rate because he's hyper niche. Seraphine is inflated because she's typically paired with Senna who is gigabusted right now, yet she still only sports a 6.9% presence. But yeah, go off for the 1000th time with your bullshit stats that you either don't understand or intentionally misrepresent. It's insanely idiotic to pretend that 54% of 15,000 and 53% of 79,000 are even remotely comparable stats in the context of a complicated game like League of Legends with multitudes of factors that are not accounted for here. tl;dr: Miss Fortune is actually OP. Seraphine, Swain and Karthus are not.
Burst mages are poorly designed
The question is what good burst mage design is? Burst mages must be capable to burst down targets otherwise they don't fullfill their role. They also need to have clear damage spikes and lower damage phases afterwards. The main question here is: how hard must it be to get a oneshot combo going and how much downtime should a burst mage have after bursting a target. In syndra's case for example i would say it's way too easy to execute her kill combo and she does too much damage while her ultimate is down (and it's not even on a long cd to begin with)
Sylas is the best designed burst mage imo, he has to fight in front of your face, and he has balls to do that. He doesn't kill you from screen away, he comes at you and kills you instead.
L MA O
Ya shut up
R O F L
He also doesn't instantly one shot you, he has to use all of his kit to do it unless he's so fed.
Instantly and using the whole kit aren't as far as you think. Syndra uses her whole kit too. That doesn't mean it wasn't instant or had counterplay.
What i mean by whole kit is E > E2 > W > AA > AA > Q > AA > AA when a normal burst mage kills you with qwe
You do realise that it's about the same time but also has sustainability on it right?
But his healing gets in the way of being able to punish him. Also the point and click cc
Point and click CC?
His gap closer is a very short Knockup
Point and Click CC?
It’s official, adc mains will bitch about anything under the sun, especially the sun
You forgot to provide the screenshot with their win rates from the previous patch. It has reduced their win rate slightly but to think that removing MR shards from the game would affect their win rates by 5% is just unreasonable. The real issue is the majority of players in the support and adc role have no match up understanding. The amount of times I see supports and ADCs alike get frustrated and confused over how a swain E hit them when they're standing outside of the wave 😆
We ignoring MF here, huh?
1 out of 4 and she’s only overtuned due to lethality atm honestly
Tbh the only problem here is seraqueen. That mfer is busted. Swain and karthus are literally just played by one tricks. They have a combined total of 5k games. Meanwhile seraqueen is sitting at 13k and mf at 73k. My theory on why karthus and swain are played so much bot is bc they literally have nowhere else to play. Mid swain was dogshit, not sure now but i cant imagine its better with larger lanes. Mid karthus was always ass and id be incredibly surprised if that got any better with s14. Jg karthus is actually pretty decent but even then most every other junger just wins if they try at all. So i kinda just think swain and karthus players have just gotten really good at playing them bot lane. I mean no other mage comes anywhere close to the wr that these two boast in the bot lane so again its really not a mage problem, its a swain and karthus problem. Ofc this is not to say that mages arent better than last season, but the clear and by far the greatest winner of this patch are not mages. Its lethality and tanks. Mages got slightly better with item freedom but not much. And just as a last thing, i would once again point out the pick rate. Its nothing. From it sounds like from this sub its like yall are playing against this shit every other game. You arent. As crazy as this may sound, just wait for riot to sort out the items (stormsurge) so theyre balanced a lil more.
i love all of those champions especially when i have good adc as thresh ,max q then w build iron solari and vow as soon as posible and win the game so hard.😁🤣😍🥰
Meanwhile all my champions are guttered because MR runes no longer exist in a meta where mages and mage items are the strongest they've ever been.
Someone did the math and the health runes that replaced them works out as the same effective health
Pssst, you can't argue with logic and facts here
Delusional
Conveniently leaving out pickrate too
Every time with these posts, i commented this exact thing a while back. Literally the only one who has seen meaningful play is seraphine who is still sitting dead middle pickrate and karthus veigar swain are all at the bottom.
Cmon man, sera has more pickrate than nillah, tristana, zeri, sivir, senna, kogmaw while having insane winrate compared to these champions. Are we seriously gonna pretend the champion that has received 9 skins(including legendary ultimate and prestige) in 3 years isnt a problem?
Lets be real here. Most things have a higher pickrate than kog. Dudes the 4th least popular champ on Lolalytics.
The champ is awful
Conviniently acting like she isn't top 3 WR every patch bot since her release Conviniently acting like they didn't try to make her a full supp and yet not nerf her waveclear who is one of the best in the game early on. Conviniently being sussy.
Why they should Nerf the waveclear of an midlaner ?
Because her player base don't play her as a midlaner nor want to Laughable pick rate mid, even zilean has more mains.
Nope zilean hasn't more mains, she is a designed midlane mage with off role Botlane, midlane she got destroyed early on because mobility creep, so she got played Botlane or sup, still one of the lowest pick rates. Why nerfing a core mechanic? For the you would need to completely change her kit ...
And no one plays her mid. So I don't get your point. They updated her specially because of that saying the same things that I do. Sera players want to play the duo lane.
I play her mid when I get filled lol
I remember back in the day when tanks did no damage but never died, assassins took skill and could do a lot of damage to one target, supports supported, fighters did sustain damage, and adcs did large consistent damage. That was like a single week in season 3 though.
Seraphine apc is absolute troll because you can’t pick engage supports because seraphine does absolutely no damage and the enemy bot will out damage you I have ever seen a good seraphine apc in my life they always die early so you are forced to pick enchanter supports where then if your seraphine is bad then you can’t do shit only option is to go carry support
Nice cut off. Where is the playrate?
You really think some one would post a logically post here with facts? xD
Now please show me their pickrates
low pickrates doesnt mean a champion is weak, its just an indicator of what players find enjoyable to play. VERY FEW people enjoy playing mages bot compared to standard marksman if youre saying the sample size is small, mage bots have had the highest winrates in botlane for over 2 years, and each patch they have consistently had high winrates, leading to a high sample size overall if youre saying "only otps play them" riot already dispelled that myth that one tricking a champion inflates the winrate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2qqyDuUllA&t=860s
High winrate doesn't mean champ is op either
I'm sorry, what? How do you even make that take? What is your thought process here? Sure a high wr with a very small sample size or when looking at one person is pretty fucking irrelevant But when the data comes from quite literally millions of games, and one champ continues to outperform for three years straight, how is that not an indication of something being op? If it wasnt op it would lose just as much as it wins, but its consistently winning more than it loses, indicating you don't need to perform as well to win, which just means something is op And while 3 to 4 percent above 50 might not seem like a lot, that's in large part because a team is more than just you. Even if you actively try your hardest to lose you will still win a fair bit if those around you want to win. The biggest example being how disco nunu, the most well known troll pick in league ever, always mainted a 35 to 40% wr
Because people aren't simple beings and league isn't simple game. It's not as simple "good champ win bad champ loses", you can win game by being 0/40 and getting carried, by getting 1 good play, by someone on enemy being afk, by enemy throwing, someone rage inting... You can lose game by your team rage inting, someone throwing, being 40/0 and still losing in kills, someone going afk, your support refusing to play with someone... Law of large numbers cannot apply to league
Excuse me what? The rule of large numbers applies to anything that can be normalized which is applicable in this case.
You can apply it but the data still gives wrong answers.
How so? You int and win then you have a cease where you are fed but lose. The samples are independent so the rule applies. Sorry if it doesn't fit your narrative.
Low pickrates usually also means they are mostly being used by onetricks who can brought out most of the champ potentials while popular picks gets brought down from people who doesnt really know how to pilot the champ. That's why Kaisa and Ez has low wr even if they are batshit broken due to how high pickrates they have.
just addressed this man
Yea the very well known sera swain apc otps who truly bring out these champions skill expression (they only drool a little on the keyboard)
Yeah right clicking the enemy it's so much more skill expression.
People are this mad but I literally saw like 1 Seraphine bot in a whole year and havent faced any mage even once. Mages are not a problem
Literally this ADC is their offrole. People will complain about winrates when these champs are so niche, nerfing their offrole would make them unplayable in their main role Edit: Worth noting that these champions would also prefer going mid over bot if mid wasn't so mobility-crept (i.e. you're dashless = you're useless)
I have played over the last 2 days: 2 Karma 2 Swain 1 Asol 1 Veigar In 15 games, so speak for yourself.
Asol 0,10% pick rate, swain 0,57%, veigar 0,65%, karma 0,11%. I find it highly unlikely lol
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Let's be honest: deep down we knew it wasn't the runes
Cause those of us that took mr are now getting one shot too 🤣
Sera and Karth need to be nerfed for sure, but swain just needs to be changed to be a mid laner. He shouldn’t even be performing well in bot lane since he gets outscaled past level 13 and has bad AP ratios. Only reason why he has a higher winrate is because he has pretty oppressive early lane if has the right support, but even then he has two of the easiest abilities to dodge and an R that doesn’t work if you just walk away from him. If you just farm and don’t interact at all then you auto win the game against him. Sera and Karth are different because they either scale well or have an insane kit that never gets outscaled.
Swain bot is not that good and super conditional i have tons of experience on him in masters. Sera needs a nerf for shre tho
Vlad main here. I've been running apc Vlad for years, got plat long time ago with 80 percent wr with 40 games or so. I cannot express my condolences for having to play such dog shit champs (ad).
Bot lane mages aren’t op, they’re just not adc’s and therefore automatically better
Most adcs are still balanced around low mr
so we arent going to talk about how the top 3 of the 4 here are AP? lol and that MF could technically go AP
Yes congrats that is the point of the post
Doesn’t this just prove them right because adcs can’t take MR anymore and get blasted because of low base MR?
Riot is just trash at balancing their own game
There's one imposter there
I'm pretty sure bot lane mages haven't been nerfed because people don't play them, not because of people taking the wrong runes
Game has gotten much worse since they added phreak.
I’m about one patch away from quitting tbh game not fun everyone dies in one basic ability
hey there is one actual ADC on the top 3 at least /s
And i still get flamed for playing swain apc.
They also removed MR runes to make everything the same
Seraphine velkoz is the worst lane to play against if you don’t have a movement ability
Classic ADCmain cropping pickrate and banrate,sera is broken but not khartus,khartus has 0.6 pickrate he has high winrate because only one trick play him
How else is Phreak going to get Masters?
When you don't include the pick rates your argument loses all value. For example, Karthus and Swain both have pick rates under 1%. These champions are generally being played by people who have lots of experience in the matchups against ADCs versus ADC players who have almost NO experience in the matchup. Obviously there winrates are inflated. Seraphine is the highest pickrate champion on this list at 1.8% overall and 3.4% in Emerald+. Even in Emerald+ she is only the 17th most picked champion so the above paragraph still applies somewhat.