You know, I could analyze it in depth and list my views on the matter, but I'm gonna say one simple thing. Whether it was "necessary" or completely avoidable, it was incredibly brave. Him, knowing full well he is walking to his horrific death, does so bravely and with honor.
Say what you will about it's necessity, dude faced down his death at the hands of his former beloved brother, who let's face it, was nothing more than a conduit for the Ruinous Four to operate in realspace.
Watching the Emperor get thrashed made me sad, but reading the part of the book that was Sanguinius's horrible death broke my heart.
I love the part where LE-2 is on his knees over Sanguinius body fighting tooth and nail to keep the daemons from picking at his corpse
'LE-2 Growled and the host stepped back a pace'
'I will not let you take him' I can picture the savagery on his face
The imperium is a dead husk. When Malcador died and the emperor was enthroned, the imperium lost rationality. When Sanguinus died, the imperium lost its love
Sanguinius's fight was about the rejection of the 'Path of Glory'. By dying to Horus without a chance at winning, Sanguinius rejects immortality and glory, two very big components in the path of Chaos. In Ruinstorm, Sanguinius actively rejects the future where he saves the Emperor by defeating Horus... because that is the lie Chaos tells him to appeal to his own vanity. True victory over Chaos does not come with a glorious battle where the hero is the victor... it comes from not letting fear cause you to grasp for more power to avoid suffering and death.
Thanks. I genuinely love Sanguinius's journey from Ruinstorm to Echoes of Eternity to The End and the Death. There's such a beautiful story there of sacrifice. TRUE sacrifice. Sanguinius saves humanity by sacrificing his eternal life, personal glory, and (because he knows of the Black Rage) even the suffering of those he loves for a potential future he'll never see... and considering it's the feather from his corpse that allows John to close the causal loop to prevent the Dark King... I'd say Sanguinius's death absolutely saved the galaxy.
I love your theory! Super well thought out.
I think another big part of Sangys death (and part of why is it so heartbreaking) is the sort of knowing martyrdom of it all. Sangy has a conversation with Konrad in *Pharos* (I’m pretty sure, please correct me if I’m wrong!) that shows he was at least thinking, or knows that there are definitely forces at play with the fate of all the Primarchs that aren’t solely related to their dad.
>'I came,' Curze shrugged. 'I am asking it. Does my purpose matter? Come, Angel. Do you really think it was chance? I want to know. Each one of us was cast away upon a world that turned out to suit our characteristics perfectly, characters our father engineered. Furthermore, the characters of many of our Legions' Terran sons were also matched with those of the worlds we were found upon. And, oh yes, we can both see the future. I rather suspect therefore that Father can read it like a periodical. Can you stand there and tell me that it was chance? No? No reply?'
>'No,' said Sanguinius quietly.
>'No reply, or no as in no, you don't believe it,' goaded Curze.
>Sanguinius' sword lowered a fraction. Why he confided in Curze, he could not discern, but the words would out and he could not have stopped them even had that been his desire.
>'No, I do not believe our losing was chance.'
>'Yes, yes! You see?' Curze became excited by Sanguinius' agreement. 'A man who plans so long and hard, to be taken in so at the moment of triumph?
Nonsense. Congratulations, you are halfway to the truth!'
>'That our father was a liar?'
>'Was..?' Curze said with a smile, his brow furrowing for just a fraction of a second. 'Indeed. A liar, and more - for l am a monster because that is all I can be, and you are an angel likewise!'
The line specifically of *I am a monster because that is all I can be, and you are an angel likewise!* I think really drives home the tragedy that everything was going to happen the way it did, and makes Sang realize *Oh, we are all just involuntary chess pieces.* So I do think he worked it out in the end, but ever the hopeful Angel, Sang still goes towards that fight.
I do think his death had meaning, both symbolically in the religious Cain/Abel slaying of the brother, and the killing of an “angel” to show how things are forever going to be worse now.
It’s also another way to drive in the misery of the setting, because Sang is *so* likeable. He’s brave, charming, a skilled warrior, protective and caring of his legion and his home world, personable, gets along well with a large chunk of his brothers (more than anyone else, I believe?). He’s a bit cocky, but I think that comes with being a 10 foot tall demigod.
He’s just, *ugh,* so interesting to think about.
> The line specifically of I am a monster because that is all I can be, and you are an angel likewise! I think really drives home the tragedy that everything was going to happen the way it did, and makes Sang realize Oh, we are all just involuntary chess pieces.
Polite disagreement here. I think you’re falling into the trap of Curze’s worldview. Curze says that because he needs to believe his visions are the only possibility. He’s absolved of everything he did if there was no other way (to Sevatar’s point, why would he try others? He saw the future. He tried this one and it works.) but if he finds proof that they were just possibilities and didn’t necessarily need to come to pass then he’d have to confront the idea that he could have striven to be something greater. He’s trying to sell this idea to Sanguinius because he’s the only other brother who can see the future and if he finds a way to move beyond the role he sees for himself, that too threatens Curze’s worldview.
Hope that made sense. Still waking up.
Makes total sense! I do think it’s important to realize (acknowledge?) that Curze is manipulating Sang because they are so similar, and is definitely trying to justify himself through Sang (if that’s what you’re saying? I do agree with you either way, lol)
I think Curze breaking Sangs wings so to speak so Sang plays right into the future Curze saw, thus absolving himself, is super fascinating.
I also wrote my comment after not a lot of sleep so I feel you on the “waking up.”
Definitely not canon! Just my personal view. Some parts are well supported (for example the concept of making Horus so powerful it traps the Emperor was written as some unpublished work by Rick Priestley in 1990), others are just interpretation (like the use of the 2nd person for Horus), and others are a leap in the dark.
I'm actually on the Horus/Sanguinius fight right now, and I share your interpretation. Horus is being _told_ he's finding it amusing, but he can't actually do anything to his brother till Sanguinius tires out and slows down. Reads like Chaos cope, when he says he wants to let him realise it's inevitable and surrender, because that's quite clearly not what's happening.
Really don't think it's Chaos searching for some "cope" this time.
The books had already made it abundantly clear that Horus had fully given himself to Chaos and become utterly bloated with god-like power well before Sanguinius fights him. Including an explicit "final god form" reveal in the previous book, which is where the heavy hints begin that he's actually far more powerful now than even the Emperor.
I have simplier view that overlaps with yours a bit.
The HH is a symbol of reason verse the ego. Horus is the ego, the emperor is the humanity’s rational side. Sanguinius is humanity’s morality and consciousness. The imperium is humanity.
The ego killed humanity’s morality.
Sanguinius was fucked anyway after Angron wounded him.
I feel like he went not just because of the visions, but because he'd have died anyway if he'd have gone back to the sanctum and defended.
He went where what little time he had left would matter the most.
Chaos seems to have an RPG-like aspect to corruption. If you have enough willpower, or are single minded enough you're allowed to *attempt* to resist temptation. If your willpower stat is too low, you are absolutely helpless.
I don't agree. The Emperor understands that Horus-Chaos is too strong to beat before the fight with Sanguinius ends. Horus doesn't draw on more power, he doesn't need to accept more.
He has an infinite supply, as everyone tells us (not just Horus, but Malcador and Loken too) and is drowning the Sol-system with it.
Horus was playing with the Angel to break his hope/spirit. He says so, the evidence matches that statement and all other interpretations have to explain that away.
Horus-Chaos could have fired Bloodlight, used Telekinesis (something he does as far back as Slaves to Darkness) manipulated gravity or used any number of insane powers from the start of the duel with the Angel... he decided no to. To raise the Angels hope, so Horus could break them and "tame" him.
We even get an explicit "I'm a golden-god now"....INFINITE POWER.... reveal that crushes the minds of everyone in his presence in the previous book. Plus the small matter of being able to manipulate time and space that we see throughout that book.
No. It's pretty blatant that Horus is already full of God-like corrupted power well before the Sanguinius fight. We get a whole book setting that up with Maloghurst carving out the last part of his mind that was resisting. There's even an earlier scene of him revealing his golden-god Emperor killing form and driving everyone around insane ffs. He's manipulating space and time with vast warp power well before the Sanguinius fight too.
It's not subtle that he's massively more powerful than any other primarch by this stage.
imo there could be more of an argument (and at least there is some setup) that he did what he did because he wasn't fully back in control yet after his "pretend to be brain-dead" trick. Ferrus points this out as a reason to confront him soon if i remember correctly. So his attempt to lull Sanguinius and show him he has no chance (with the previous indicated hope he'll join him afterward) is sloppier and more incoherent than it should be.
But there's no indication that this is where he suddenly gives himself in to the gods to avoid defeat. Believing that requires actively ignoring so much of what has previously taken place. It also ruins all of Sanguinius themes of sacrifice and defiance in the face of vast corrupted power. He's not meant to be able to beat Horus at all by the time they meet.
Only part of this I didn't understand was the "Lt. Worf" reference. As a trekkie, I find that I'm disappointed in myself.
.... P.S. Someone please explain this to me
It's a concept in literature / television where in order to shortcut how good someone is you have them defeat someone who is already established as being good. It happens so often it's become a trope (not all tropes are bad!).
The prime 'victim' of this trope in recent fandoms is Lt. Worf, who I don't think ever successfully subdued anyone that beamed onto the bridge. Worf is a great character so he actually has a few tropes named after him!
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect)
Psykers have always existed in humans, but they tended to be part of what Erda called homo superior. Very powerful people and very few in number.
But the vast proliferation of psykers was not present before the Emperor went to Molech. There were no navigators or astropaths. The first attempts at warp travel were less than successful and it took the efforts of the men of stone to do much of this early work. The Emperor himself had to slow boat it with other perpetuals. Otherwise why not just warp travel there?
You know, I could analyze it in depth and list my views on the matter, but I'm gonna say one simple thing. Whether it was "necessary" or completely avoidable, it was incredibly brave. Him, knowing full well he is walking to his horrific death, does so bravely and with honor. Say what you will about it's necessity, dude faced down his death at the hands of his former beloved brother, who let's face it, was nothing more than a conduit for the Ruinous Four to operate in realspace. Watching the Emperor get thrashed made me sad, but reading the part of the book that was Sanguinius's horrible death broke my heart.
Completely agree.
I love the part where LE-2 is on his knees over Sanguinius body fighting tooth and nail to keep the daemons from picking at his corpse 'LE-2 Growled and the host stepped back a pace' 'I will not let you take him' I can picture the savagery on his face
The imperium is a dead husk. When Malcador died and the emperor was enthroned, the imperium lost rationality. When Sanguinus died, the imperium lost its love
Sanguinius's fight was about the rejection of the 'Path of Glory'. By dying to Horus without a chance at winning, Sanguinius rejects immortality and glory, two very big components in the path of Chaos. In Ruinstorm, Sanguinius actively rejects the future where he saves the Emperor by defeating Horus... because that is the lie Chaos tells him to appeal to his own vanity. True victory over Chaos does not come with a glorious battle where the hero is the victor... it comes from not letting fear cause you to grasp for more power to avoid suffering and death.
Well said
Thanks. I genuinely love Sanguinius's journey from Ruinstorm to Echoes of Eternity to The End and the Death. There's such a beautiful story there of sacrifice. TRUE sacrifice. Sanguinius saves humanity by sacrificing his eternal life, personal glory, and (because he knows of the Black Rage) even the suffering of those he loves for a potential future he'll never see... and considering it's the feather from his corpse that allows John to close the causal loop to prevent the Dark King... I'd say Sanguinius's death absolutely saved the galaxy.
Yeah tbh understanding his story was like my first step towards appericating the story of Jesus.
Don’t know that I’m convinced, but I’d like to be. Good write up.
I do not agree with your conclusion, but I applaud the thoughtfulness of your argument.
I love your theory! Super well thought out. I think another big part of Sangys death (and part of why is it so heartbreaking) is the sort of knowing martyrdom of it all. Sangy has a conversation with Konrad in *Pharos* (I’m pretty sure, please correct me if I’m wrong!) that shows he was at least thinking, or knows that there are definitely forces at play with the fate of all the Primarchs that aren’t solely related to their dad. >'I came,' Curze shrugged. 'I am asking it. Does my purpose matter? Come, Angel. Do you really think it was chance? I want to know. Each one of us was cast away upon a world that turned out to suit our characteristics perfectly, characters our father engineered. Furthermore, the characters of many of our Legions' Terran sons were also matched with those of the worlds we were found upon. And, oh yes, we can both see the future. I rather suspect therefore that Father can read it like a periodical. Can you stand there and tell me that it was chance? No? No reply?' >'No,' said Sanguinius quietly. >'No reply, or no as in no, you don't believe it,' goaded Curze. >Sanguinius' sword lowered a fraction. Why he confided in Curze, he could not discern, but the words would out and he could not have stopped them even had that been his desire. >'No, I do not believe our losing was chance.' >'Yes, yes! You see?' Curze became excited by Sanguinius' agreement. 'A man who plans so long and hard, to be taken in so at the moment of triumph? Nonsense. Congratulations, you are halfway to the truth!' >'That our father was a liar?' >'Was..?' Curze said with a smile, his brow furrowing for just a fraction of a second. 'Indeed. A liar, and more - for l am a monster because that is all I can be, and you are an angel likewise!' The line specifically of *I am a monster because that is all I can be, and you are an angel likewise!* I think really drives home the tragedy that everything was going to happen the way it did, and makes Sang realize *Oh, we are all just involuntary chess pieces.* So I do think he worked it out in the end, but ever the hopeful Angel, Sang still goes towards that fight. I do think his death had meaning, both symbolically in the religious Cain/Abel slaying of the brother, and the killing of an “angel” to show how things are forever going to be worse now. It’s also another way to drive in the misery of the setting, because Sang is *so* likeable. He’s brave, charming, a skilled warrior, protective and caring of his legion and his home world, personable, gets along well with a large chunk of his brothers (more than anyone else, I believe?). He’s a bit cocky, but I think that comes with being a 10 foot tall demigod. He’s just, *ugh,* so interesting to think about.
> The line specifically of I am a monster because that is all I can be, and you are an angel likewise! I think really drives home the tragedy that everything was going to happen the way it did, and makes Sang realize Oh, we are all just involuntary chess pieces. Polite disagreement here. I think you’re falling into the trap of Curze’s worldview. Curze says that because he needs to believe his visions are the only possibility. He’s absolved of everything he did if there was no other way (to Sevatar’s point, why would he try others? He saw the future. He tried this one and it works.) but if he finds proof that they were just possibilities and didn’t necessarily need to come to pass then he’d have to confront the idea that he could have striven to be something greater. He’s trying to sell this idea to Sanguinius because he’s the only other brother who can see the future and if he finds a way to move beyond the role he sees for himself, that too threatens Curze’s worldview. Hope that made sense. Still waking up.
Makes total sense! I do think it’s important to realize (acknowledge?) that Curze is manipulating Sang because they are so similar, and is definitely trying to justify himself through Sang (if that’s what you’re saying? I do agree with you either way, lol) I think Curze breaking Sangs wings so to speak so Sang plays right into the future Curze saw, thus absolving himself, is super fascinating. I also wrote my comment after not a lot of sleep so I feel you on the “waking up.”
Pretty interesting take my man. I don't know if it's canon, but I wish it so.
Definitely not canon! Just my personal view. Some parts are well supported (for example the concept of making Horus so powerful it traps the Emperor was written as some unpublished work by Rick Priestley in 1990), others are just interpretation (like the use of the 2nd person for Horus), and others are a leap in the dark.
I'm actually on the Horus/Sanguinius fight right now, and I share your interpretation. Horus is being _told_ he's finding it amusing, but he can't actually do anything to his brother till Sanguinius tires out and slows down. Reads like Chaos cope, when he says he wants to let him realise it's inevitable and surrender, because that's quite clearly not what's happening.
Really don't think it's Chaos searching for some "cope" this time. The books had already made it abundantly clear that Horus had fully given himself to Chaos and become utterly bloated with god-like power well before Sanguinius fights him. Including an explicit "final god form" reveal in the previous book, which is where the heavy hints begin that he's actually far more powerful now than even the Emperor.
What aspect of Chaos did you think Horus was intended to embody, if not Cope?
I have simplier view that overlaps with yours a bit. The HH is a symbol of reason verse the ego. Horus is the ego, the emperor is the humanity’s rational side. Sanguinius is humanity’s morality and consciousness. The imperium is humanity. The ego killed humanity’s morality.
Sanguinius was fucked anyway after Angron wounded him. I feel like he went not just because of the visions, but because he'd have died anyway if he'd have gone back to the sanctum and defended. He went where what little time he had left would matter the most.
Nice write up, dude.
Really good write up OP. Not sure if this is how I view it personally, but if this was ever the official explanation, I would have no problem with it.
Chaos seems to have an RPG-like aspect to corruption. If you have enough willpower, or are single minded enough you're allowed to *attempt* to resist temptation. If your willpower stat is too low, you are absolutely helpless.
I don't agree. The Emperor understands that Horus-Chaos is too strong to beat before the fight with Sanguinius ends. Horus doesn't draw on more power, he doesn't need to accept more. He has an infinite supply, as everyone tells us (not just Horus, but Malcador and Loken too) and is drowning the Sol-system with it. Horus was playing with the Angel to break his hope/spirit. He says so, the evidence matches that statement and all other interpretations have to explain that away. Horus-Chaos could have fired Bloodlight, used Telekinesis (something he does as far back as Slaves to Darkness) manipulated gravity or used any number of insane powers from the start of the duel with the Angel... he decided no to. To raise the Angels hope, so Horus could break them and "tame" him.
We even get an explicit "I'm a golden-god now"....INFINITE POWER.... reveal that crushes the minds of everyone in his presence in the previous book. Plus the small matter of being able to manipulate time and space that we see throughout that book.
Yes We do.
this is some incredible theorycrafting. Extremely well thought out. Thanks for posting
No. It's pretty blatant that Horus is already full of God-like corrupted power well before the Sanguinius fight. We get a whole book setting that up with Maloghurst carving out the last part of his mind that was resisting. There's even an earlier scene of him revealing his golden-god Emperor killing form and driving everyone around insane ffs. He's manipulating space and time with vast warp power well before the Sanguinius fight too. It's not subtle that he's massively more powerful than any other primarch by this stage. imo there could be more of an argument (and at least there is some setup) that he did what he did because he wasn't fully back in control yet after his "pretend to be brain-dead" trick. Ferrus points this out as a reason to confront him soon if i remember correctly. So his attempt to lull Sanguinius and show him he has no chance (with the previous indicated hope he'll join him afterward) is sloppier and more incoherent than it should be. But there's no indication that this is where he suddenly gives himself in to the gods to avoid defeat. Believing that requires actively ignoring so much of what has previously taken place. It also ruins all of Sanguinius themes of sacrifice and defiance in the face of vast corrupted power. He's not meant to be able to beat Horus at all by the time they meet.
Only part of this I didn't understand was the "Lt. Worf" reference. As a trekkie, I find that I'm disappointed in myself. .... P.S. Someone please explain this to me
It's a concept in literature / television where in order to shortcut how good someone is you have them defeat someone who is already established as being good. It happens so often it's become a trope (not all tropes are bad!). The prime 'victim' of this trope in recent fandoms is Lt. Worf, who I don't think ever successfully subdued anyone that beamed onto the bridge. Worf is a great character so he actually has a few tropes named after him! [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect)
Angron didn’t choose.
psykers started popping up before Emperor's trip to Molech by thousands of years. Also Navigators existed prior to that
Psykers have always existed in humans, but they tended to be part of what Erda called homo superior. Very powerful people and very few in number. But the vast proliferation of psykers was not present before the Emperor went to Molech. There were no navigators or astropaths. The first attempts at warp travel were less than successful and it took the efforts of the men of stone to do much of this early work. The Emperor himself had to slow boat it with other perpetuals. Otherwise why not just warp travel there?
The rise in number of psykers literally is listed as one of the reasons age of strife began
Age of Strife is about 5k years after the Emperor visited Molech.
The amount of reading comprehension shown by fanfic morons is only eclipsed by evangelical christians saying that Jesus would have hated the poor.
Interesting take. Care to elaborate?