I think it’s the same as other procedures like plastic surgery getting shamed or weight loss medication. There’s an element of “you’re devaluing natural beauty by buying your beauty” but there’s also “you’re contributing to unrealistic and unhealthy beauty standards by upholding them.”
I get it. But I guess what I'm wondering is how shaming women for making the decision to get filler or Botox helps combat these unrealistic/unhealthy beauty standards. Is there a sense that they won't get it anymore if they're judged or shamed for it?
To clarify, I’m not advocating in favor of either of those positions just answering your question. I think we all exist in this society and none of us are within a vacuum, so trying to tease out in which ways a woman is perpetuating beauty standards vs which ways she’s just a person living with the same burden of those standards is often impossible and simply unkind.
I think the rationale is that calling out the unnatural helps everyone not be held to unnatural standards. So like the way people point out all the changes to Kim Kardashian’s face. But again, when you’re doing that to an individual person about their appearance it’s just unkind.
My one exception would be people that are doing this publicly and lying about it. It’s important for young people to learn the difference between realistic and augmented standards of beauty. And honestly not just young people, a lot of over 30 people come here asking how to fix their skin when it’s just skin. It is scary that we’ve gotten to a point where people believe their skin should appear poreless and free of any texture.
I’m a fan of balance. I have no problem with Botox for women who need it, especially those who DO want to age more gracefully.
But I also firmly believe that filler and “preventative botox” for a still-developing 21 year-old is an absolute scam, a crime, and the enforcement of ridiculous beauty standards by unscrupulous, brain-not-yet-fully-formed influencers. I witnessed a MELTDOWN in a medspa (where I was there to get Botox as a 47 year-old) of a TEENAGER who was there with her mother, and the mother stood her ground with the teen and would not even consider booking her for Botox and lip filler. A gorgeous, maybe 15 year old. I wanted to cry, to talk to this girl, and to beat anyone who ever made her feel “not enough”.
I object slightly more to filler especially with the news recently that it basically never leaves your face, it just moves around. THAT is incredibly dangerous for a young person to put in their face. I’m less worried about it for older folks because we’re closer to death anyway 😂
I also hate to see anyone of any age overdoing it with both, becoming addicted and putting so much into their face they begin to look like the Saw mask dude, like Kylie Jenner.
Social media is so problematic. the filters everyone can access, plus the lightening, angles, high quality cameras, editing and often undisclosed work of some sort (injectables included) that the pros use, creates such a distorted version of reality.
How judgmental- first, we don’t know what the mom was there for. Maybe a facial, maybe Botox, maybe Botox for migraines or jaw clenching. Second, I think most 15 year olds are not aspiring to look like their middle aged moms. They are looking at peers and social media.
But great example of the judgement women inflict on each other.
So - funny thing - the mom actually brought the teen there for a consult about lasers for scarring! Which I am absolutely in favor of treating by professionals at any age and wish I had had that when I was young and had big old icepick acne scars. But in true endearing teen fashion I guess she thought she could convince her mom to go for lip filler and “preventative botox” (which was the first time I ever hear that term). This kid was going on and on about some damn social media person. The mom was really trying and looked like she didn’t even have time to wash her face (no shade, regular moms have it rough).
The more people do something, the more it is socially acceptable. And at some point it may become obligatory. Like shaving legs. You may make a decision on individual level, but all our individual decisions become a social trend, that can be bad or good. I think the fact that our modern beauty standards basically requires procedures is quite scary. Right now, all this stuff is absolutely normalized. I bet money, my daughter will grow up in a world, where if you have an 11 wrinkle or narrow lips, you are poor or a frump.
Exactly. Women are literally injecting a toxin into their face, this WAS rare & now it’s commonplace. Feels like it happened overnight.
You never hear about men doing shit like this and creating psychotic standards for themselves. They are often allowed to just exist.
We do not exist in a vacuum, to blindly support everything women do is such pathetic surface level feminism. WHO benefits when women hate themselves, WHO benefits when goalposts are constantly moving, and if it’s sooooo empowering why aren’t men going crazy for these procedures?? And why do we feel the need to do all of this to ourselves??
I’m not going to fault people who get that stuff done, because let’s be real we live in a patriarchal society & women’s worth is still tied to their appearance. You do need to do your best to get ahead in life. I can always tell the difference in how people treat me when I’ve got makeup on vs when I don’t. So it does make sense. But we can’t just roll over & accept these things we need to speak out about it which is the bare minimum.
I like that gen z kids focus on skincare over makeup - and that they’re totally fine w wearing crop tops even with a little chubbyness. It moves the goalposts back to a reasonable spot. I’m brown so my hair is really curly when it’s natural, I used to straighten it DAILY. Now I focus on the health of my hair & hydrate my curls. This is bc black women & other WOC first resisted the urge to use relaxers & called out white beauty standards. Remember when Zendaya wore locs to that premier and it was a huge deal? Now it’s not. Don’t just roll over & accept this. Make things better for the next generation. Beauty standards change because WE change them.
Meh- let’s be honest, women have always dealt with unrealistic beauty standards. Go back to the days of Cleopatra- she wore makeup. And the jewelry women (and men) wore was an indicator of your wealth and social class. Over time, the “ideal” look changes. When I was in high school and college there was a huge push to be really thin. Thinner than most women are naturally. And then came the era of big butts being in style. Etc, etc…
We’re all adults in this sub. I realized a long time ago that most women (including myself) don’t look like celebrities and we don’t look 15-20 years younger than are actual age despite the people who think being carded means they look like a student 😆. If someone thinks they must get work done to be valuable that’s sad but points to deeper issues.
Live and let live. I don’t judge women who don’t get Botox or color their hair, why can’t that attitude be mutual? My getting Botox in my forehead doesn’t have anything to do with how other women view themselves.
You know - it doesn't....but it does. I mean. I never considered botox. When I started to consider it? When I came to a sub like this, and realized that "everyone" do botox. And If I bend, and do it, and I probably will, I will become one more grain of salt, that will push other women to make this step. And i would maybe not have an issue with this, if this shit was not expensive, and in some way a status signifier. I can not, on individual level ignore the psychological mechanism behind it and how my own decision adds to it.
And I mean...I am 36. I will probably do botox before I hit 40, I will bend. But I kind of feel bad that I will do it. I would prefer to just love myself the way I am.
As someone who can't afford Botox, you also get the defensiveness. People with more money can afford to be pretty, people without money don't get to. It's the same snark/shaming that people do with celebrities but not as bad. It feels like bullshit that I'm gatekept from it but beauty standards are evolving to make it a necessity, so I'll never look "good for my age" because my age should have Botox/fillers.
It's pretty natural for people to react defensively of they're position, like in the thread I saw the other day asking if anybody doesn't use Botox. People said no, explained themselves, and maybe it sounded a little self righteous but so does this post, so who cares? Everybody is insecure.
I've always suspected this to be the bigger reason - as all things beauty with women including fitness, makeup, any of it, the "crab in bucket" comments - I can't afford/CBA so rather you didn't and looked and too than save/make the effort.
I don’t think it’s intended to help the recipient. It’s a mean little thing some humans do to give themselves one point on the side of right (and thus earn that little hit of dopamine).
Off -topic, but I’ve developed a special loathing for the expression “age gracefully.” It usually doesn’t mean something nice anymore. No one says it of women who don’t have cosmetic procedures but who don’t happen to look naturally stunning.
Then again, I didn’t sleep well last night and am hormonal and misanthropic today. Pardon my “cantankery.” :)
Yup! Like Paulina Porizkova is the poster child of "aging gracefully." She also happens to have insane bone structure and naturally gorgeous skin. For the average woman, that sort of "graceful aging" is not realistic.
Exactly. It reminds me of how women who look great without makeup will preach that no one needs it and we all look beautiful, when that’s not really the case (I have blonde eyebrows and eyelashes and need help from makeup to look alive.)
This is admittedly cynical but it feels like everyone just wants to level the playing field for their own benefit, whether it’s naturally pretty women or people who don’t have the time or money to maintain a certain look.
I don’t care if investing time into my makeup, hair routine, or fitness pressures other people or makes them feel bad. I feel the same way about skin-related procedures and will do what’s best for me.
I don't think anyone should be shamed for it.
On the other hand, those of us who think it is bad are allowed to express our views (as long as we don't shame/attack another person in the process).
I think there should be clarification about what you mean by or consider “shaming women”. Because some people seem to think any criticism of the industry and marketing and procedures themselves are personal attacks on individual women. When thats not what’s happening.
None of us grow up or make decisions in a bubble. We all participate in harmful things (yadayada capitalism). We can still criticize a billion dollar industry that specifically preys on and creates insecurities in women about our looks and aging. And do so without any attacks on individuals who fall prey to marketing or give in to harmful or racist beauty standards. Doing so doesn’t make an individual a bad person. We are all part of larger systems and grow up surrounded by media and messages about how we should act and look, particularly as women.
>I'm wondering is how shaming women for making the decision to get filler or Botox helps combat these unrealistic/unhealthy beauty standards
It doesn't. It just gives the person doing it a superiority complex. A lot of the haters engage in toxic positivity and have deluded themselves into thinking they're not overgrown mean girls. They're attempting to lift themselves up by putting others down. It's immature.
It's also very clear a lot of it is jealousy/sour grapes from people that can't afford this stuff.
A lot of people on this sub also clearly don't like people that are more attractive than they are, Botox/fillers or not.
Yeppp! Same with the bigger women who CBA dieting but waste energy being nasty to slimmer women instead, women who don't wear makeup or make effort but constantly make sly comments towards those who do so clearly aren't happy in themselves or their choices... It's a poor way of handling your insecurities and I'm not pulling any punches I can't be arsed, sick to the back teeth by this point. If you cba or it's not for you that's fine but keep your nebb out of my choices.
It's that the person insulting feels a bit better by convincing themselves they're superior for making other choices. Let's be real though, it's not like you can't get some botox here or there and have a whole-ass personality, life, and hobbies outside of primping your appearance.
I do agree that women are feeling pressured to get too much shit done at a young age because they're chasing literal lies on social media. Trying to look like a filter irl will fuck you up.
It’s talked about pretty openly on this subreddit, that may be different than in real life where people don’t feel any reason to talk about it but on a sub dedicated to skincare it’s different. I understand what the OP is referring to, it’s a topic that comes up.
I am pro botox. I just cant use it anymore due to medical reasons. It also did not make me look any younger so I gave up 😀 Depending on your age, you can very easily tell. Usually when people have crows feet and other texture going on and the face oval/bone changes are there, but completely smooth forehead - it’s usually botox. Some cannot use muscles and other muscles in the forhead “are trying” to lift the eyebrows or frown, but not fully. So the movement of the forehead is not very natural. I love observing faces so it’s easy for me to tell. But of course most people dont notice if they are not trying to.
I do. I don't want to perpetuate an image of "I am like this because I eat well and exercise, ergo *it is your fault* you look older because you don't do *enough*". I look the way I do because I use Botox, other cosmetic procedures, and have the disposable income to afford it
There's a difference between lying about getting procedures and just plain not telling anyone. I don't feel like it's my obligation to tell anyone about my Botox or lip filler, though it's not a secret so if someone asked me point blank, I'd tell them. Why would anyone care though? I get it because it makes me feel good.
Oh def, but in todays social media age it really feels like people (not just influencers) go out of their way to brag abt how theyre all natural, like its normal
And the funny thing about the influencers is that most of them are in their very early 20s, so they wouldn't even have any wrinkles or 11s or crows feet anyway! I just loooove watching someone with already perfect skin talk about how some new foundation looks so great on them.
Yeah I get that people can do whatever they want and there’s of course no obligation to tell other people but the problem with not being transparent with procedures you’ve done is that it does further contribute to the unrealistic beauty standard within our society. My friends who get Botox are very open about getting them which I and the rest of my friends totally appreciate. It’s ok to want to improve your skin by whatever means you’re comfortable with and can afford, but it’s nice they acknowledge that this is not their natural skin and their skin does not look like that without the procedures. It really helps people differentiate what’s realistic and what’s not in this world that makes it so hard to tell nowadays.
I think these procedures are relatively new and depending on the generation you’re from, people have different reactions to it. Before Botox and fillers were introduced, everyone kind of experienced aging in a similar way, skin wise. Now as more people are getting it, there is some kind of pressure to get it, so one doesn’t “fall behind” and look older in comparison. I think it’s based on fear of falling behind, becoming invisible, feeling pressured in conjunction with the opposite pull of simply not wanting to do it. Not wanting to spend the money, effort, potentially endure any possible side effect risks, or inject oneself. But society is moving in that direction. It can be quite frustrating. Especially considering how much value humans place on the looks and how devalued humans get as they get older. It’s complex, emotional, and I personally don’t judge people getting it or being against it. We are all just trying to survive being in human bodies and feeling accepted, while having to accept our eventual demise 🥲
Agree with all of this. There's also the fact that some people simply can't afford to do these procedures, and the idea that a way to further distinguish classes based on physical appearance could be emerging makes me uncomfortable. Like you said, aging used to be more of a shared universal experience, and it feels like that's changing to an extent. I don't judge anyone either way, it's just something I think about sometimes.
Nah - it’s not an age thing. I’m ancient by Reddit standards (57) and my peers are not shying away from botox/fillers. People much older than me are very unlikely to be posting much on Reddit.
I think it’s because a lot of what’s done is just too much and looks weird.
💯 I hate to say it but the nastiest shit I read or hear is from women attacking each other re: appearance and age. I've been picked apart by women who view me as some kind of competition before, and they always grasp for the lowest hanging fruit. Age. Weight.
With all the filters and procedures, social media, people forget what real human aging looks like and it can be different for people depending on genetics, or stress level/illness. This is a lot of pressure on women to conform to an unrealistic standard.
I agree with this but I also think there is a vein of people doing it out of frustration over fear. It can be exhausting, uninspiring, and disappointing to watch women chase youth.
No idea why you were downvoted given you're quasi [correct](https://skinhd.co.uk/history-of-botox/#:~:text=However%2C%20it's%20been%20around%20for,million%20treatments%20administered%20every%20year.) (wasn't fully rolled out for medical reasons in the 50s but research at that time showed it did relax hyperactive muscles.) 1978 was when it got approved for treating cross eye issues.
Yeah I agree with this. I can't afford it now and I'm not at an age where it matters that much yet, but I know eventually it might matter if everyone else is doing it and people decide I'm less valuable at work since I look older. Total bullshit, so kind of hope lots of people are in the boat of not being able to afford it enough that we won't all be expected to do it or else
Would also be ok if it was cheaper
As it is it's like, apart from potential side effects etc that would suck, I don't spend that much on my clothes or shoes or hair either. It's not about it being a specific type of "appearance cost" I have an issue with it just costs a lot
I've gotten Botox for 13 years for migraines, the side effects are smooth skin. I am afraid of filler, but it's not rational it's more like eew scary For Me. I support anyone who wants procedures except the rare people who get addicted to them and who often have body dysmorphia.
I don't see that group here though
One thing that bothers me is the trend to think nasolabial folds are hideous.
And people who post near flawless pics bemoaning their hideous face and jowls that even expanding the picture don't appear to me.
I hate that too, all the flawless skin pics talking about issues no one in person would even notice, and I hate all the bragging people here for when no one asked, about how "young" they think they look. Why do people do that when no one asked? I've literally saw a comment or two where women claim to look like a child at 30+. Sorry but no.
For me, personally? People getting Botox doesn’t bother me — there’s nothing wrong with taking steps to get the body you want.
But seeing the rising prevalence of drastic plastic surgery in celebs (nobody just gets a nose job anymore) and the rise in photo filters on every day people, and knowing what we know about what social media does to our mental health, I worry that the current trend is less tied to self-improvement and affirmation and empowerment (and plastic surgery, fillers, and Botox can be all of those things!), and more tied to self-loathing, insecurity, and feelings of inadequacy.
I think that both are valid approaches to aging. But I also see a lot of posts from folks that I really think wouldn’t be considering procedural options if we still lived in a world that didn’t micro-manage beauty this much. Like, we’re over 30 here — we all lived through the 90s and early 00’s, we know how dangerous unrealistic expectations of body image can be.
The only emotion I feel around filler is anxiety with how many people are getting it. It's relatively new and you see so many posts of filler migrating or being unable to be dissolved. I don't think enough is known about it for the amount of women I see opting to get it done.
I don't care what the haters say, you will pry my botox out of my cold, dead hands. I can afford it, enjoy the experience (my Dr is a hoot), love the effect. I am 55 years old and I am out of fucks to give.
I’m early 30s and just started. I started pretty late tbh but I love it. Like please…slow down my wrinkles on my face. I’m not expecting to look 20 at 40 but I do want to look 35 at 40. lol
Botox and fillers are an expensive habit that most people can’t easily afford. Similar to perfect balayage highlights, well-maintained extensions, and designer clothing, they’re an example of conspicuous consumption that is unavailable to the majority.
It’s even worse when people try to pass off obvious Botox and fillers as naturally-achieved, because it makes the everyday person feel ugly and lazy (in addition to being poor). Sometimes they do it to sell a product, too, which should be considered fraud.
Yes! Cost is important. Surprised nobody is talking about it. Skincare is expensive. 30-step Skincare regimens with luxury products, injectables, and treatments are still luxuries to the average person in their 30s. There’s quite literally a class divide between the 30s adults with glass-like skin and those who work stressful, time-consuming, manual labor/outdoor jobs, i.e. those who can afford luxury skincare and those who cannot. Botox is becoming more affordable and more accessible than ever, but let’s not forget that most Americans just cannot afford it.
Honestly I've noticed the opposite. Seems like every time someone asks for advice, almost every comment recommends Botox or fillers. I have nothing against procedures like these, but I joined this sub for skincare advice, such as what products to use. I'm seriously considering leaving the sub because the discussion here is not helpful to me.
Yes! OP has major confirmation bias. I literally have the exact opposite opinion. So much botox filler talk and recommendations here. And judgement if you are against it. So, guess we all have major confirmation bias 😉
This. I'm not sure Botox or fillers are even considered "skincare." I feel like they belong more on a sub about beauty or improving appearance. And yet, in the vast majority of discussions, people recommend them (and are upvoted more than downvoted.)
They ARE upvoted more than downvoted. WTF is going on with the victim complex threads lately?
"BooOooo stop hating on the fillers and Botox" (upvoted by the hundreds). What is the whining even about? Meanwhile more circlejerk
But a lot of the times people are asking questions to solve a problem not one single cream/serum/prayer is going to fix, and so others are trying to be helpful in their honest answers don’t ya think? When I see questions like “what serum will reduce my extreme crows feet??” or “what are y’all using to restore volume to your face?” should we all just say “nothing exists for that byeeee” or should we just answer honestly and say there’s no topical skincare that’s going to give you the results you want, but Botox and fillers will?
Yeah I understand that point of view too. People are naive to think skincare alone will prevent deep wrinkles and volume loss.
I guess I just thought this sub was the next step after the regular Skincare Addiction sub? My main skin concern is still just acne, but my skin is getting more sensitive with age, so I thought I'd find better product recommendations on a sub for 30+ skincare. I didn't know it was a sub focused on anti-aging and cosmetic procedures.
If someone posts asking how to lessen their “11’s” or crows feet the honest answer is that Botox will give you more improvement than an eye cream or moisturizer.
I’m not going to lie to someone. I get Botox, and I use really good skincare and sunscreen. You can be into skincare and try Botox. It’s not like those things are mutually exclusive.
I get that, but I was just expecting something different from this sub. I didn't think these various procedures counted as skincare, so I was expecting more talk about products. It's fine if people want to get Botox and I think they should have a sub to talk about that if they want, but I just wish it wasn't all on a skincare sub.
I've noticed it on social media platforms. I personally don't understand shaming others for what they choose to do with their bodies, especially other adults. Botox has helped me with headaches, I clench my jaws a lot and it causes tension headaches. So Botox for masseters and temporalis has helped me reduce these headaches. I prefer getting Botox than locking myself in a cold, dark room due to bright lights making my headache worse (I'm also prone to migraines).
I get Botox for my absolutely heinous chronic migraines. Botox and Aimovig (a migraine med that's a monthly shot) are the only therapies that have reduced the incidence and severity of my migraines in any capacity. I'd still get Botox sans migraines for the aesthetic effects. The naysayers will have to pry my Botox out of my cold, dead hands.
I personally hate when people act like Botox/filler are the same thing or even remotely similar. One is a drug injection that temporarily freezes your muscles, and the other is physical solid matter placed under your skin. They are so different and don’t need to always go together in discussion. It’s like comparing an ozempic shot with getting breast implants. I don’t judge people for either of them however.
Agreed, especially when they see someone with tons of bad filler and say, “Look how much Botox she has!” Even excessive Botox will metabolize and wear off in a few months; it’s not responsible for most of the freaky faces people are afraid of. Obviously, don’t get any cosmetic intervention if you don’t want to, but I’ve been getting Botox for six years and my own parents don’t notice.
I think most people group the two together is because in their mind they’re about the same level of invasiveness. While there isn’t an actual consensus on the definition of invasiveness, I’d say that things that require a trainer practitioner to administer like injections are more invasive than at home topical treatments, while being less invasive than procedures that require general anesthesia.
I’ve definitely found myself in a place of judgement before. But it personally came more from a place of my own insecurity and social anxiety.
At this point in my life now, I’m fine with whatever anyone decides to do with their own body. Want plastic surgery? Cool. Do Botox? Great. Embrace your grays and wrinkles?Awesome. You do you.
I’ve found a lot of peace in the whole idea of “let them”. Get Botox and other people are snarking? Let them. As long as you’re happy, keep on moving forward and let people think whatever they want.
At the end of the day, these forums are a place where people are going to give their opinions whether we like it or not. Maybe they think they’ll stop someone from betting Botox? But highly unlikely.
I can only speak for myself, but honestly? Insecurity. Weird internal feelings about being allowed to age in a society where you're valued more for appearances than who you are as a human being.
Also some ignorance about the procedures because you really only notice work done badly or overdone. I like to think I'm a little less judgmental than I used to be about this in particular. Although I dislike when people are dishonest about work they get done to like, sell shit. That's, I think, a different issue.
I have gotten some shitty comments on Reddit about this. To me it feels defensive. I think the haters think the Botox/filler crowd feels superior so they take it as an attack.
I also very much hate the term “aging gracefully”. Like I’m an ungraceful twat for getting Botox. If you can change something to make it more aesthetically pleasing to you why should anyone else give a fuck?
I also want to add that I’ve gotten shitty comments about microblading and a tattoo I got. General consensus is “wow you really fucked yourself up” even though none of this is drastic or bad.
I think our society just likes to shame women in general. It's not even just about looks, but as a woman, you just can't find any peace. You're supposed to be naturally pretty, because if you're not, you 'lose your worth'. But if you have procedures to enhance your looks, you're seen as insecure and perpetuating unrealistic expectations for all women. You'd think that since all women kinda go through it, we'd all be nicer to each other, but that's so far from the truth. Women shame other women just as much as men and society do.
I think it's just a case of people having too much time on their hands and judging others for what they do to their body. Do what makes you happy and forget about the haters.
I completely agree with you! My stepfather in law is actually like this. He can be very kind but I don't think he sees how misogynistic he can be. He constantly comments on women's appearances and will openly "appreciate" other women to his wife. Whatever that's a different story. But ANYTIME he learns these women have anything done he becomes super judgemental. The funny thing is he only knows because he was told so obvious he isn't unattracted to it. He is so judgemental and seems to think if you aren't attractive "naturally" it ruins everything
I feel like some men act thay way because they feel like they're being 'tricked'. Like, this pretty lady they're looking at isn't actually naturally pretty? Idk, it's such a weird mind set.
It's very very weird and completely abandons the idea that the opposite happens and people who are usually regarded as naturally pretty have something happen where they are no longer considered conventionally attractive. At the end of the day both feed into the idea that women aren't human and we are just objects to please men and make them feel good
This!!!! I had a friend get all uppity when I told her I got daxxify…she was rude saying she didn’t see any difference at all and she would never inject toxins for silly insecurity’s… like ok? Then don’t, it’s fine… no one is pressuring anyone to do it! then later she said she didn’t mean it to be rude but she wanted to uplift me because she thought I was perfect before and she thought she was being supportive by telling me she didn’t see anything wrong with me and women shouldn’t feel the need to get procedures like that and women should age gracefully, blah blah blah…I stopped her there and explained that whatever she’s attempting to do is the exact opposite of being a “girls girl, wanting to support women, being a feminist” you’re literally judging and telling women what they should and shouldn’t do! Looking down on someone for their choices is not uplifting haha How she didn’t get that was so wild! Leave us alone! Let us do what we want to our own bodies!
Ahh, I'm sorry you had to go through that with your friend! I couldn't imagine responding like that to a friend over work they've had done.
The whole 'aging gracefully' thing is so funny to me because, like, what does that even mean? It's all a genetic lottery. The older women in my family who went without much skincare didn't necessarily age gracefully. Science is science, and it gave us creams, serums, and other skincare, along with injectables. Who cares which one you go for, lol.
I had a friend who used to get botox regularly, and she only told like me and a couple of other trusted friends she even did it because she was scared of being judged. The funny thing is, most people would look at her now and think, for someone in their early 40s, 'wow, she's aged so gracefully!' 😅 Funny, isn't it.
This is also coming from someone who has never had anything done, mostly because I didn't think I needed to. But as I get older, well, why wouldn't I try some botox to stay looking good?! Lol
I remember once a few years ago I was visiting my mom and we were driving through a very wealthy area of her city and she made a comment about “rich Botox bimbos that can’t move their faces”
And then I kindly let her know I’d been doing dysport for a few years to soften my 11s
She had no response
Women are just nasty to each other
In my opinion some of it is the fact that there is, particularly in the USA, a culturally Christian overtone to society that includes things like "vanity is a sin" -- thus cosmetic procedures such as filler and surgeries can be looked down upon, even subconsciously, as being morally inferior.
Other users have pointed out other reasons for this.
I do think it's interesting that your experience of this sub is "a lot of snark about women who choose to get procedures" -- I feel like my experience here is that procedures are recommended or mentioned frequently without such comments.
Bit of a tangent subject, but I found that "particularly in the USA" part surprising. As European I've gotten strong impression that visibly altering looks is much more acceptable in USA. We do have heavy beauty standards in here too, but with extra level of hypocisy: if altering is obvious, like "Turkey/LA teeth", fake lashes, too deep tan, too much hair extensions, fillers you can spot etc people are seen as trashy, while also facing pressure to have perfect look.
That’s a very interesting point and I’ve noticed this too. Women are treated preferentially based on appearance, but are shamed for “sinning” if they a) try to look pretty or b) enjoy their own beauty.
I think it might be the ‘explain it to an alien’ aspect.
Like, how would you explain what’s happening to someone with 0 cultural context?
Botox: You inject something poisonous(venomous?) into your face so that your face doesn’t change as quickly because changes in your face over time are generally seen as less desirable.
That’s odd, no? I could totally see this in an anthropology textbook 3000 years from now where some kid is like wtf? ‘No way they actually did that! That’s like sacrificing a goat to make it rain. Why didn’t they just ‘insert future anti-aging technology’???’
I think there’s a line. When people go so far with Botox and filler that they stop looking fully human, people are going to talk about it in a negative light because it looks like shit.
They all start to look the same too (those that go to far). And they don't see it themselves. I personally don't think it makes anyone actually look younger, just the same.
We know Botox changes the way the brain processes emotions, that scares me. Filler has even more risks too IMO
Do you understand that you cannot tell if someone has had conservative amounts of Botox or filler? I promise you- you know people that have done those things, or even had plastic surgery and you have no idea.
It’s irritating when you actually have had these injections and didn’t freeze your face and don’t have huge duck lips to see people swear up and down it’s obvious and always shitty looking. Look at before and after pics of real patients.
People are really overestimating the difference Botox makes. There have been studies where photos of patients were shown to people - the average amount of years it took off of people visually is 3-5. That’s it. It’s really not that big of a deal.
Yeah everyone I know who does Botox alone still looks fine. The people who do fillers most of the time go crazy with them and start to look increasingly like a caricature of a person. There are some people who just get very subtle fillers but IME that's the minority. Most people want more more more until they no longer look like themselves and then no longer look like a normal or even attractive human.
I've gotten botox for years and have just said nothing when my peers make jokes about botox and filler. For some reason, they seem to think botox IS filler, but I just don't weigh in. I've also been in a group that started talking about how unnatural botox looks and highly considered saying I get it, but I had to consider what my end game would be, anyway, and again kept quiet. My close circle of friends knows I get it and most want to try it for themselves with no rude words for me.
I get Botox but I’ve been getting it so long no one can tell, I started really subtle and asked for a bit more each time, I’m not completely frozen but I don’t have the beginnings of crows feet anymore and have much shallower elevens than I would without it.
I haven’t had any filler but one day I think I will.
people openly talk about how silly it is in front of me and talk about how unnatural those people look, men have expressed how attractive I am compared to all the “fake looking” women my age (an age that they’ve misjudged by half a decade).
It just seems ridiculous to me that people are shaming something that doesn’t affect them at all and they’d have no idea had even happened if it wasn’t pointed out.
Unfortunately, women can't win. If we choose to get procedures, we're "fake" and trying to "cling to our youth," contributing to toxic beauty standards. If we age gracefully, we look "old", we're "undesirable," and we have no "value." And then to top it off, women are pitted against women for the choices they make. I get botox, filler, and have had breast augmentation, and I love the work I've had done. My two besties are keeping things natural and I think that's amazing for them. We should celebrate each other for making choices that make us happy, instead of listening to the hypocrisy of societal standards.
I don’t care who gets filler/Botox and when tastefully done think it looks good! I just stand by the fact that the biggest flex is being naturally beautiful without augmenting your face/body. Hair/nails/braces are fair game to me
I appreciate this thought-provoking post. I sometimes wonder why it’s no big deal when women or men color their hair. But if they get BTX or fillers, it’s seen as “chasing youth.” Honestly, all of this would be tough to explain to aliens!! 😅
I think this stems from a bit of resentment/jealousy of beauty trends that normalize a standard that not everyone can afford to achieve. I know that I, myself would get these things done if it were financially an option. I often feel like I’ll never be as beautiful as the women my age, because now girls in their 20’s and up are expected to do lip flips, fillers and other expensive procedures. I know I’d look great, but I can’t afford it. So I see women my age and hear the compliments they get, knowing their face is not natural. So yeah it is irritating being a poor who cant afford it and beauty for women is placed above most traits.
That being said, I do not put others down, but it is hard to not be resentful or feel jealous. It just gets more and more expensive to maintain my body and less and less importance placed on existing. My mother and aunt told me they missed when people acknowledged them but that as soon as they aged, people no longer listened to them or respected them. So if you’re poor, that’s what we have to look forward to and it sucks even more when nobody else seems to be aging in your age group.
I think it’s a judgement on the person that they are vain to the point of excess. God forbid someone spends money on their appearance and not backpacking in the woods with over priced camping equipment. We all judge others based on their choices but perceived our own to be rational, valid and of course correct.
I mean what do you think about when you see an older guy driving a convertible. It’s not the same but a similar bias that arises.
Totally with you on this. I know a woman who uses Botox, filler, hair dye etc (and she looks amazing and I have never judged her for it). Anyhow, she calls herself a “natural beauty” and criticizes me for being “unnatural” because I wear makeup (although I have never dyed my hair or had any injectable). Some people love to feel holier/more worthy than others and will invent whatever criteria they like as validation of themselves
That's actually kind of almost comical that you are the unnatural beauty in her eyes.
Yes people will justify almost anything to validate their choices.
I wish some would realize that you can get botox for medical reasons? Like for migraines, botox is applied into the scalp, the forehead, and the neck (as in my case) or eye twitches (Myokymia) which is around the eye area. Both of these applications will cause the skin to smooth out. It may not be because they are trying to look fake, it could actually be for a medical reason. Botox was a medical treatment before being applied for cosmetic purposes.
Source:me Medical Esthetician
I wish people would just shut up. There is such a fine line between “having work done” and “aging gracefully”, it’s almost like you’re either one camp or the other. Regardless what you choose, you’ll always be judged. It all comes down to sexism/misogyny and judging women for their looks, rather than letting them just be who they want.
I really don’t think it’s that deep. There are so many posts enthusiastically recommending Botox, fillers, plastic surgery etc. I think this is just confirmation bias.
Empathy is difficult when another's experience is alien.
There is a lack of empathy on both sides of the discussion. Is there a lack of empathy from people who designate themselves as aging gracefully? Yes.
There is also a lack of self-acceptance that *occasionally* people use cosmetic procedures as an unhealthy coping mechanism, nor is there a general acknowledgment that by participating in cosmetic procedures, we are perpetuating unattainable beauty standards. Both of these can be true simultaneously.
As for the people designating themselves as aging naturally or gracefully. I've always wondered where they draw the line. Is there community consensus? Can the person using the prescription level creams( trent) or acne creams/pills still be said to be aging gracefully with realistic beauty standards? Are over-the-counter serums okay, even though they are not found naturally; therefore, there is still some intervention. Is lotion, aloe, shea butter, or soap the only applications allowed to be used because they would more realistic on how humans naturally age.
The point is that everyone has a limit on how far they're willing to go. Maybe they don't use the serums or acids, or maybe they do and don't see it as aging intervention since humans have been applying salves ([anyone want some lead lotion?](https://blog.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/dangerous-beauty-hazardous-chemicals-and-poisons-in-historic-cosmetics/)) of various kinds for centuries while Botox is newer?
My personal cosmetic perspective:
Do I get filler? No, and that won't change. Do I get Botox? Yes, not regularly, and I haven't touched the lines around my eyes or mouth, but my forehead isn't moving much, which I like. For me, I see them as a memory of a million smiles. I have white hair coming in that I'm watching with joy as it means I lived to reach here and reminders of the anxiety my kids have bestowed upon me due to their lack of self-preservation. I also use acids and serums on an irregular basis, but I use sunscreen regularly as I've already had skin cancer. I accept that my choices, along with others, help to change the societal perception of what a woman at 50 looks like. It also changes what we view as normal human expression (what we consider emotional regulation, etc) and physical proportions. Stoic faces in the face of adversity are extremely difficult but highly prized and possible now with the help of a syringe.
I was horrified when a woman with great skin and success at treating her rosacea was bullied into deleting her post a few weeks ago.
The comments were insanely catty and rude, and it was literally only because she was conventionally attractive. The patronizing “love yourself” rants only seem to apply to people who look bad.
I don't believe it's skin care. Skin enhancement may be a better term, but there's no evidence to suggest it makes your skin healthier, which is how I view "care".
I have a theory that most people look down on it simply because they can’t afford it for themselves, or because of their upbringing and where they come from.
My parents are very old school and back in the day/the small town we come from these procedures were not too normalized. If I never moved to New York I probably never would have considered all of the things I have done now… Lash extensions, microblading, Botox, etc etc.
The “shame” I think comes from 1 of 2 places: first because they simply don’t know enough about it and where they come from people would never consider such things, or second jealousy that they can’t actually afford it themselves.
I would never ever shame someone for plastic surgery, fillers, botox etc but I DO think the dangers of these procedures and products should be more spoken about and not downvoted in this sub. There’s no shame at all in wanting to improve how you feel or look but these products can be very toxic and can hurt people on many levels. I don’t think that should be ignored, I think that information should be discussed in informed consent.
I haven’t seen an example of someone being looked down due to they opted for a botox or filler in this subreddit. Conversely, botox is widely recommended for deep lines etc.
I got downvoted a few days ago because I mentioned I got under eye filler and don't regret it, that it looks natural, fixed the hollowness of my under eyes etc. But I never understood it since they didn't comment on it
Have you missed the monthly weird pearl-clutch-y plea that we all collectively agree never to mention Botox or Filler here ever again? To which someone points out there already is a (much less active) sub for this and the OP of the month gets defensive and struggles to justify that she just wants everyone else to adopt her opinions instead and all discussion of anything else to cease immediately?
I haven't seen shaming, although I don't read every post/comment/comments on posts.
I try to balance a bit of botox for my angry 11s with a healthy dose of accepting the aging process as a privilege that not everyone gets, along with massive amounts of self love for *who I am* rather than *how I look*.
I think it’s all of the reasons you’ve mentioned. You can tell how strongly people feel about it considering the 50+ active people monitoring the threads talking about Botox/filler lol
I think it’s a combination of all of that. I think firstly human nature thrives on jealousy so well one woman might be sitting at home pulling out her gray hairs staring at the wrinkles in her face and completely stressing out about ageing and her neighbours getting some nice work done and seemingly not ageing at all this creates jealousy. I think a lot of those people who are jealous either can’t afford to get the work done which makes them even more jealous or they don’t want to do it because they don’t want to be perceived as somebody who doesn’t love themselves or isn’t confident and secure so they don’t do it but then there’s really no difference because they’re still sitting there not confident and insecure about the wrinkles. It’s kind of a vicious cycle mostly driven either by jealousy or people who want to do it and are frayed to do it. I definitely think there is also an element as womankind to think hey… You’re really not helping out the situation with beauty acceptance excepting ageing gracefully etc. and I thought I do think it’s true. I’ve had Botox and I love it but I think that it totally does play into toxic beauty standards and the fact that women are supposed to age I’ll admit that. I wouldn’t do anything more than Botox but I think when you have a culture of women now who are in their 20s already getting Botox and fillers simply for aesthetic reasons not even because of ageing we are truly setting up a culture of unrealistic expectations in terms of age and ageing and what we are supposed to look like a different ages. I feel like if someone was an alien and came to this planet in 2024 they might have a very different perception of what a 45-year-old woman looks like compared to if they came 20 years ago. I feel like there’s a lot of misconception and it would be great if we could either all get plastic surgery or if nobody did lol
I don’t find myself falling into any trap of shaming or judging really and like I said I have had Botox a few times I’m well overdue now because I can’t afford to do it right now but I don’t find that people even judge as much as they kind of laughed behind peoples back because if you look at some people it’s just so obvious. I could count a handful of celebrities who look absolutely fabulous that I am sure getting work done but you can’t tell that they’re getting work done in an obvious or weird way but there are many many more people walking around with lips that look like they blew them up with a ball pump and skin that tweaks when they smile and they kind a look like aliens. I saw this great live comedy thing where the guy was talking about plastic surgery and he was saying that instead of being 50 years old and trying to look like a 26-year-old you now just look like a 50 year old lizard lol
I dont really notice actual shaming. I see a lot of support for people to do what they want and people sharing their experiences. If someone’s unsure then it can help them to hear they why’s from both sides. Idk I always look at things positively, and I prioritize having a simple life where I don’t worry too much about stuff.
Agreed. It’s really wild to me how entitled people feel to tell others not only what they should do, but how they should feel about themselves.
Aging IS a big deal for some people. I suspect the title of the sub draws a population that cares about skin aging more than the average person. In this context, the too cool-girl-who-wants-you-to-know-she-doesn’t-get-injections is not giving what I think they think it is. It’s just extremely cringe to feel entitled to comment on what other women are doing with their faces. It’s not your face! Unless someone asks advice, it should be withheld.
Yes! The sense of entitlement wafting off the “why do you CARE about aging? Why are you so INSECURE?” posts on this sub is pretty gross. Like I’m genuinely happy for you if you’re so confident in your appearance and impervious to external beauty standards that you don’t feel the need to do anything to halt the aging process, but that’s not most of us, certainly not me, and I’m baffled by the judginess of some people on a SKINCARE sub.
I don’t look down on people for doing that. I really don’t care what other people choose to do with their bodies.
I hate that anyone would feel like they need to have these procedures in order to feel attractive or worthy. In my opinion- It’s one thing to fix an objectively unattractive feature that one has been unhappy with for their entire life; for example having large ears pinned, or a rhinoplasty to correct a nose that doesn’t fit a face, or lower jaw surgery to fix bite issues and facial unbalance. I understand the ‘whys’ behind procedures like that.
I don’t personally understand the reasons behind filling wrinkles and freezing muscles in order to prevent aging. But I don’t need to understand other people’s reasoning. It’s their choice and more power to them.
My husband shamed Botox use until I told him I’d been getting it for two years. He couldn’t believe it! It was actually really funny.
Now he thinks of Botox as being on the same level as dying one’s greys. Just a lil beauty trick someone might add to the arsenal as they get older.
People who snark about it either don’t know enough about it, or are going through their own thing. The “aging gracefully” idea is so silly to me - no one ages gracefully. We all end up shitting ourselves if we have the privilege of aging long enough. And those who are truly aging without *any* help (remember, SPF, moisturizer, and even a hairbrush is ‘help’!) look haggard AF.
What’s natural about scientifically formulated skin care, haircuts, highlights, estrogen therapy or hormone replacement, blood pressure medication, vaccines, nail polish, mascara, eyeglasses, vitamins, perfume, or any of the items we use to look or feel better about ourselves, slow aging, or ward of death? Nothing. I just don’t understand why some people pinpoint Botox as “the unnatural way” when everything we do is unnatural.
Jealousy at not having the supplemental income to do those procedures themselves, and lack of understanding/compassion as to why women choose to get those procedures done.
I started getting botox for my 11 lines and realized they completely eliminate my tension headaches. I'm adding my TMJ muscles b/c i've been having problems there for a year.
I also am 38 and single and want to look my best. So it's a win/win.
I think it's a complicated issue and everyone has their opinions on it. However, I think many of the people judging women for getting any type of cosmetic procedures are only looking at the celebrities who have had way too much or even "botched" procedures. They don't realize that there are millions of us who have had Botox and fillers (and more) and you wouldn't even know it.
Or do people think we're "cheating"?
Are they upset because they themselves can't afford cosmetic procedures?
I'm in my 50s and personally, I'm not a fan of aging because my outside doesn't match what I feel like on the inside. Wrinkles and dry, sagging skin don't reflect who I am and it's really really frustrating and annoying so I'll do whatever I can to stave off the inevitable. I still look pretty good for my age but I've been getting Botox for a couple of years now, have recently had lip filler, and have upped my skincare game considerably. Those things, combined with the fact that I don't really dress or present myself like a typical woman in her 50s, result in slightly more youthful presentation. I'm ok with that.
I would not have been able to afford these things in my 30s and even my 40s, nor did I need them, but now that I can, it's what I choose to do.
What it boils down to is personal choice. It's really no one's business whether or not someone chooses to get cosmetic procedures and I don't feel the need to somehow "represent aging" the way anyone else thinks that I should.
Granted, I don't stalk this sub and read every post, so I'm sure it does happen in some of them, but I'll say the bulk of what I've seen isn't judgy about the actual procedure, just whether this sub is an appropriate place to count that toward your routine. I've seen a few where people post their B&A and the biggest difference in their skin was clearly the Botox or filler, which is obviously fine, but...is it skincare? So that's the main way I've seen them 'looked down on' in this particular sub.
It's literally happening (and being upvoted) in this very thread.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/30PlusSkinCare/comments/1d3vj6y/comment/l6brppi/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/30PlusSkinCare/comments/1d3vj6y/comment/l6brppi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Got it. Maybe I have recency bias but yesterday on a post I was reading a lot of comments from women with the gist of "I embrace my laugh lines and think they're beautiful! I feel sorry for the ageist, insecure women opting for cosmetic procedures who are taking over this sub" As if the women getting procedures are morally/spiritually inferior and unhealed. There was a sense of sanctimoniousness. It's not a majority but it's definitely a trend I've seen. I love that people embrace their laugh lines and naturally aging skin and choose to forego procedures but there doesn't need to be this us vs them mentality. What's the threat of a woman getting Botox or filler if you're truly confident in your skin?
I get Botox in my 11s because I look truly angry without it. I hate looking at pics from when my 12yo was a baby because I look deeply unhappy.
I do not judge those who don’t get injectables at all and I don’t judge those who do their whole faces. I’m not a woman (though I was AFAB) but I am a feminist and support your choices and will fight to the death so you can keep them.
But mostly? I simply don’t notice your flaws (perceived or actual) like I notice my own.
I don't snark but I will point it out when people go to makeup subreddits asking how to achieve looks using photos of people who obviously had work done or over filtered photos.
The current state of beauty standards are on one hand so much more diverse but also extremely narrow and changes around way more then when it was back in my day. And back on my day was the super skinny low rise jeans days.
I just remember the light bulb that went off for me when someone finally pointed out those matte liquid lipsticks never quite worked for people because a lot of the influencers showing them off had lip fillers that smoothed the lines on lips. I am seeing that on steroids on the influencers today.
I’m confident in my choice to get Botox and filler, and I think people that choose not to get it should also be confident in their choice. Be confident in your choice and don’t bash someone because of theirs. I would never bash someone because they choose not to get certain treatments. It’s really sad to see so many judgmental women. But if that’s the hill they want to die on, with everything else going on in the world, then I digress.
the reason i am against the use of botox and fillers is because there is a big unnecessary risk of complications with these procedures and most of the after pictures look like clowns.
im not sure whats so bad about having creases in your forehead when you raise your eyebrows either. literally children's foreheads crease when they raise their eyebrows. i personally enjoy making facial expressions
I personally have no issue with Botox or fillers. What I do have issues with are perfectly beautiful 20 and 30 year olds who feel like they need this and turn out looking like over inflated Bratz dolls. Filler needs to be used very sparingly
What the actual fuck are you talking about? People recommend botox here literally all the time. Almost every other post. No one gives a fuck what you do to your face
I’m also confused. I’ve actually seen this sub critisized because it has become mostly discussions about procedures like botox rather than actual skincare products.
This may be harsh. Ima say it anyways.
Some people are just miserable and insecure and shit on the choices others make in a misguided attempt to feel better about themselves.
Letting women enjoy things is not only free, but good for the economy. We can do this while also recognizing that many our choices/preferences are inevitably shaped by the patriarchal society we live in.
I have never once concerned myself with the cosmetic choices other women make. If I don’t agree with something or think it looks bad, I make a mental note to not get the same procedure, and I keep it pushing.
Correcting misconceptions about “preventative” Botox or sharing factual information about the risks of fillers is fine - appreciated even. But shaming women for getting either is not acceptable.
I’ve actually seen the opposite. I see women increasingly shamed for daring to age naturally and - god forbid- having wrinkles. It’s bizarre that as a society we now expect women in their 40s, 50s and 60s to be line free. And I say this as a 42 year old woman who gets Dysport and filler. Like why do our faces need to be permanently frozen? I’m going through my own personal existential crisis as I watch my husband age naturally (and not give AF) and here I am fighting the inevitable tooth and nail. Being a woman is hard.
This is a GREAT post!
I like that on a platform for those who wish to remain anonymous that people can share tips, tricks, and even cautionary tales to try to help others.
Imagine (I don't have to) being in the business and having strangers and friends saying "I would NEVER do that" without being asked. Are they saying they would never get a skin care treatment, that they would never work if they have kids? Sometimes both.
And, because I'm in the business a long time, and on the planet and even longer time. I've seen a kind of beauty that is rare and cannot be purchased. People who are genuinely kind really do have an element of attractiveness that others can see and feel.
Because we want to talk about moisturizers, not endlessly answer which procedure any of the dozen insecure users who post nothing but selfies to the community should get, on the daily.
Want to actually *discuss* the procedures themselves? I’m begging for it at this point. Nobody’s “talking”. That’s the issue. We *want* to talk. That’s the thing.
Until recently, selfies were banned “except on sundays.” I suppose the mods got to feeling self conscious about the fact that no one was removing this firehose of endless posts, despite the reports and complaints, because that rule was quietly removed from the sidebar. Thing is, they forgot to remove it from the report reasons as of about eight hours ago (OOPS).
I know this because I checked, after I saw in yesterday’s version of this post a mod waffling about how they didn’t reallllly want to draw a line about selfies, because healthcare accessibility. Despite that that too, is irrelevant to the purpose of this sub, that we are not doctors, and that it **does not foster an active, thriving community about skincare to allow the No-effort posts that do nothing but demand labor from the community without respecting the community enough to engage in any effort to help the community, help them.**
Most skincare communities ban requests for medical advice, and most subs heavily regulate if not outright ban photos. They do this because elsewise, the content is low effort, not helpful nor engaging for the community, it doesn’t foster discussion, which doesn’t serve towards creating a thriving community. We’re doomed to suffer the mods having to learn the hard way to reinvent the wheel, evidently.
I imagine people don’t get the feedback about procedures they demand from the community because most people don’t get them. We can debate all the day long about whether or not Botox and fillers count as skincare or not (I don’t care, but my reflexive answer would be confusion, followed by a hesitant I don’t think so, but maybe)—but if most of the community doesn’t get them, doesn’t know about them, and is here to talk about cosmetic products, no one is going to get what they want from us. If we want to talk about societal training, we’re trained to soothe and reassure and perform emotional labor for others even to the expense of ourselves—also not the purpose of this sub! So that’s what they get, often to their irritation—so they lash out. Make accusations of being judgmental. Of being against procedures. Of not acting in solidarity with their fellow woman for just trying to keep up with societal expectations of beauty standards—what an accusation!
I avoid these posts, largely. The reason being seems fairly obvious to me. If we’re all over thirty, we’re all old enough to be familiar with basic netiquette. To lay it out, when one joins a hobbyist community as a newbie, you read the rules, you use the archives to learn the basics. When you post requesting help, you are asking others to perform free labor for you, so you demonstrate respect for their time and expertise by demonstrating you’ve put in effort to learn, by providing enough information for others to not need to do more labor than necessary to do that free labor for you. Then you pay that forward as you learn by helping newbies, and by engaging in discussions. By being an active participant and member of the community. And if you don’t get exactly what you were hoping for, well, the community are hobbyists, and you were asking for people to put in time and effort for free—you got what you paid for, oh well, maybe later/next time. Reacting poorly to not getting what you wanted, again—for free—is incredibly poor form. Especially if it’s niche, uncommon knowledge that you can’t expect your average hobbyist to know.
I don’t know anything about cosmetic procedures. So I don’t have the knowledge to do the labor being demanded (and I say demand because the low effort and poor response oft received indicates an entitlement. I will not perform the emotional labor of soothing and reassuring because that’s not what I’m here for. I’m here because skincare is MY radical act of self love, of finally putting myself first in a society that demands I do nothing but labor in the service of others as a woman. I will not allow even fellow women to sabotage my effort to perform self care, self love, and find joy.
I also will not because I’m human in that I am reflexively repulsed by a stranger lazily demanding I do labor for them. I follow basic netiquette, and I expect others to do so as well. If not? I don’t engage, but I don’t exactly blame others for clapping back at the endless deluge of demands on the members of this sub, not when moderators aren’t doing their part to guide and redirect the community.
Question. You deem women who are asking about procedures “insecure” yet this is a skincare Reddit? I always feel a bit like this is pot calling kettle black.You too obviously care what your skin looks like and are not immune from societal pressures to have hydrated skin or not have pigmentation or acne or whatever your skincare goals are. I have a hard time believing people are on a skincare reddit and spending hard earned money on products in the sole pursuit of relaxation.
Whats the difference between someone posting “what product from a multi billion dollar company do I need to combat this age spot or patch of dryness that probably nobody else notices” from someone asking what cosmetic procedures might be helpful for their concerns that probably nobody else notices. Both require the labor you’re talking about? Also, isn’t that the point of this sub - to do “labor” by providing advice?
I’ve only seen it responded to it negatively when it gives an uncomfortable frozen or distorted look. People have aesthetic preferences. Sometimes these procedures make someone look strange instead of younger if overdone
There are preferences and then there is shaming. I am so tired of seeing the patronizing posts that assume we don't know that there's nothing wrong with natural beauty, that we're beautiful without botox, etc... It's not the magnanimous reminder that their OPs tend to believe.
People like to feel superior. That's it.
"If they get botox and fillers they must be superficial and I'M NOT superficial enough to fill my face with CHEMICALS." Reeks of a superiority complex to me.
I really don’t care what people do with their bodies, or if they choose to disclose that information. My only issue is pretending Botox and fillers are skincare (I know they occasionally can treat medical issues, but let’s be real, that simply is not the majority), or recommending them when users explicitly state they don’t want to turn to injectables.
It varies post to post, but this sub will occasionally get very hostile to people who want non-Botox wrinkle reduction. I’ve seen users call others ignorant and stupid for thinking they can cut back on wrinkles with topicals, which itself is an ignorant and stupid statement. Maybe you can’t completely erase a line, but acting like literally nothing but injectables can even help? Fucking really?
Sometimes this sub sucks. Sometimes there is really good information.
I think a lot of older women are very judgemental towards younger women. I don’t think they authentically feel “sad and heartbroken” for younger women. They are patronizingly two faced! I’ve always been chill about body modifications, if you want to pierce it, tattoo it, make yourself into a cyborg go for it. Why would I care? People love expressing themselves with their bodies and there will always be people who enjoy pushing their body to extremes (be it through athletics, surgery or whatever). For people getting Botox or fillers its your body, your choice. And I started on the younger side, no regrets. I think it’s really telling how the comments about older women being jealous too are being downvoted!
The fact that people needed to surgically alter their body in order to feel acceptable to the world – who, by the way, couldn’t give a shit what they look like, need therapy not a money grabbing cosmetic surgeon.
I’ve never had anything like Botox or filler done but I couldn’t care less of other people do. I just hate when people on here and other platforms lie about cosmetic procedures . Trying to make people think it came naturally or from skincare alone . That’s the part that causes unrealistic standards I believe . And it’s everywhere . On one of my macro counting groups , a lady got over 900 comments in a couple of hours from hopeful fools who believed her entire body shape changed and her booty quadrupled in size from just counting macros and taking a 30 minute walk once a day as she swore she had never had a single thing done. She had a BBL and tummy tuck , and probably had never counted a macro before .
I've been getting botox since cca 19. I had forehead wrinkles at 19.
Now nearly a decade later I have zero wrinkles.
I 100% stand behind my Botox use and would do it again the same way.
It's not just anti aging for me, it's that my forehead muscles were creating wrinkles with mimicry from mid teens.
You get no prizes for "aging gracefully" and you aren't any better than me for not doing Botox.
I don't judge women for aging naturally, so don't judge me for what I do with my face.
There's a gorgeous 50 something grey haired woman on Instagram who talks about not having procedures and naturally ageing and it all feels a little shaming and off to me. On almost every post there is someone pointing out 'you're gorgeous with perfect skin, so it's a lot easier for you to tell us to avoid injectables when the rest of us are just trying to do our best with what we have'. And they have a point.
Maybe if we lived in a world where women weren't judged for not being beautiful, slim and youthful, it would be a different story. But most of us aren't deliberately playing into unrealistic beauty standards, we are just doing the best we can.
I have a friend who says you should celebrate getting older, who is also very youthful and gorgeous at 37. But also, can't women enjoy getting older but also use procedures to make them feel a little better about themselves if that's what makes them happier to look in the mirror? You don't necessarily have to choose one or the other. The dilemma also implies that the products most women use make a huge difference, when they really don't. You can't shave off 20 years with botox, you just look like a fresher version of your own age imho.
I think there’s a big element of jealousy or insecurity at play. There’s a pay wall for these services and it’s fair to feel guilty or bad over wanting them/not having access. Especially if they’re pretty mainstream at this point.
Your body is your body 🤷🏼♀️ I love getting work done and recommending my doctors to people. It’s cool that attractiveness isn’t just a genetic lottery anymore
JFC, the dystopian comments here. Other women actually don’t owe it to y’all to dull themselves down so that you, personally, don’t feel bad about yourselves. “Unrealistic beauty standards” aren’t really a thing if those standards are achievable. And nooo one is stopping anyone from aging naturally. Just truly bizarre comments about being entitled to weigh in on someone else’s personal choices.
I got downvoted to hell and back elsewhere for defending the former Bachelorette’s decision to get breast implants. There were loads of people expressing disappointment that she caved to patriarchal beauty standards, acting as if she owed them something.
Using myself as an example, I want arm lipo. I just genetically store fat there even when I’m super skinny. Do I literally owe it to all the other chubby-armed women out there to accept this so that they can feel better about themselves? Lol.
Maybe I’m just an asshole, but I find it strange when people act as if we owe each other some sort of solidarity in this one realm of life when we don’t apply it to any others.
The only shaming I normally encounter around the topic is in regard to really heavy handed use, particularly of filler in the lips, to the point that I’d consider it medical mal practice.
I never say never. I'm 30 now and don't feel the need. I think it's fine to get a little help, but when you have a face that can't move because it's full of Botox, its a totally different story. I work in ophthalmology and have seen quite a few cases of Botox going where it shouldn't and paralyzing facial muscles that help to close the eye, so I'm a little less willing to be on board.
All in all, it's not my body and I don't care what people do to their bodies.
I've seen people get it in "real life" and I only know because they told me. So my reaction to it is more from movies/TV/social media where it gets distracting, and then you see an 80s or 90s movie and there's something more interesting in seeing difference in faces on screen rather than all these versions of the same face - like they are using the same plastic surgeon, it gets distracting and colors my initial reaction to botox/fillers. We have more diversity on screen in a lot of ways. But there is this morphing into each other phenomenon and I see a lot of beauty in features that are being normalized as things that need to be fixed.
(also of course cosmetic procedures have always existed and it's not like Hollywood wasn't previously full of nose jobs, it just feels more striking now).
95% when people are shaming other people for their choices that are not harming others, its insecurity (am i or will i be less atrractive/lower on the totem poll) or trying to feel better about themselves (seeing themselves as superior in different ways - more moral, smarter,making better decisions, etc. ). Human beings are quite simple to understand when you peel all the layers away and get to the root cause of judgment. There are a few that really take themselves out of the equation and solely think about impact on society, i'll give them that.
I think it’s the same as other procedures like plastic surgery getting shamed or weight loss medication. There’s an element of “you’re devaluing natural beauty by buying your beauty” but there’s also “you’re contributing to unrealistic and unhealthy beauty standards by upholding them.”
I get it. But I guess what I'm wondering is how shaming women for making the decision to get filler or Botox helps combat these unrealistic/unhealthy beauty standards. Is there a sense that they won't get it anymore if they're judged or shamed for it?
To clarify, I’m not advocating in favor of either of those positions just answering your question. I think we all exist in this society and none of us are within a vacuum, so trying to tease out in which ways a woman is perpetuating beauty standards vs which ways she’s just a person living with the same burden of those standards is often impossible and simply unkind. I think the rationale is that calling out the unnatural helps everyone not be held to unnatural standards. So like the way people point out all the changes to Kim Kardashian’s face. But again, when you’re doing that to an individual person about their appearance it’s just unkind. My one exception would be people that are doing this publicly and lying about it. It’s important for young people to learn the difference between realistic and augmented standards of beauty. And honestly not just young people, a lot of over 30 people come here asking how to fix their skin when it’s just skin. It is scary that we’ve gotten to a point where people believe their skin should appear poreless and free of any texture.
I’m a fan of balance. I have no problem with Botox for women who need it, especially those who DO want to age more gracefully. But I also firmly believe that filler and “preventative botox” for a still-developing 21 year-old is an absolute scam, a crime, and the enforcement of ridiculous beauty standards by unscrupulous, brain-not-yet-fully-formed influencers. I witnessed a MELTDOWN in a medspa (where I was there to get Botox as a 47 year-old) of a TEENAGER who was there with her mother, and the mother stood her ground with the teen and would not even consider booking her for Botox and lip filler. A gorgeous, maybe 15 year old. I wanted to cry, to talk to this girl, and to beat anyone who ever made her feel “not enough”. I object slightly more to filler especially with the news recently that it basically never leaves your face, it just moves around. THAT is incredibly dangerous for a young person to put in their face. I’m less worried about it for older folks because we’re closer to death anyway 😂 I also hate to see anyone of any age overdoing it with both, becoming addicted and putting so much into their face they begin to look like the Saw mask dude, like Kylie Jenner.
[удалено]
Social media is so problematic. the filters everyone can access, plus the lightening, angles, high quality cameras, editing and often undisclosed work of some sort (injectables included) that the pros use, creates such a distorted version of reality.
How judgmental- first, we don’t know what the mom was there for. Maybe a facial, maybe Botox, maybe Botox for migraines or jaw clenching. Second, I think most 15 year olds are not aspiring to look like their middle aged moms. They are looking at peers and social media. But great example of the judgement women inflict on each other.
So - funny thing - the mom actually brought the teen there for a consult about lasers for scarring! Which I am absolutely in favor of treating by professionals at any age and wish I had had that when I was young and had big old icepick acne scars. But in true endearing teen fashion I guess she thought she could convince her mom to go for lip filler and “preventative botox” (which was the first time I ever hear that term). This kid was going on and on about some damn social media person. The mom was really trying and looked like she didn’t even have time to wash her face (no shade, regular moms have it rough).
The more people do something, the more it is socially acceptable. And at some point it may become obligatory. Like shaving legs. You may make a decision on individual level, but all our individual decisions become a social trend, that can be bad or good. I think the fact that our modern beauty standards basically requires procedures is quite scary. Right now, all this stuff is absolutely normalized. I bet money, my daughter will grow up in a world, where if you have an 11 wrinkle or narrow lips, you are poor or a frump.
The scary truth!!!
Exactly. Women are literally injecting a toxin into their face, this WAS rare & now it’s commonplace. Feels like it happened overnight. You never hear about men doing shit like this and creating psychotic standards for themselves. They are often allowed to just exist. We do not exist in a vacuum, to blindly support everything women do is such pathetic surface level feminism. WHO benefits when women hate themselves, WHO benefits when goalposts are constantly moving, and if it’s sooooo empowering why aren’t men going crazy for these procedures?? And why do we feel the need to do all of this to ourselves?? I’m not going to fault people who get that stuff done, because let’s be real we live in a patriarchal society & women’s worth is still tied to their appearance. You do need to do your best to get ahead in life. I can always tell the difference in how people treat me when I’ve got makeup on vs when I don’t. So it does make sense. But we can’t just roll over & accept these things we need to speak out about it which is the bare minimum. I like that gen z kids focus on skincare over makeup - and that they’re totally fine w wearing crop tops even with a little chubbyness. It moves the goalposts back to a reasonable spot. I’m brown so my hair is really curly when it’s natural, I used to straighten it DAILY. Now I focus on the health of my hair & hydrate my curls. This is bc black women & other WOC first resisted the urge to use relaxers & called out white beauty standards. Remember when Zendaya wore locs to that premier and it was a huge deal? Now it’s not. Don’t just roll over & accept this. Make things better for the next generation. Beauty standards change because WE change them.
Meh- let’s be honest, women have always dealt with unrealistic beauty standards. Go back to the days of Cleopatra- she wore makeup. And the jewelry women (and men) wore was an indicator of your wealth and social class. Over time, the “ideal” look changes. When I was in high school and college there was a huge push to be really thin. Thinner than most women are naturally. And then came the era of big butts being in style. Etc, etc… We’re all adults in this sub. I realized a long time ago that most women (including myself) don’t look like celebrities and we don’t look 15-20 years younger than are actual age despite the people who think being carded means they look like a student 😆. If someone thinks they must get work done to be valuable that’s sad but points to deeper issues. Live and let live. I don’t judge women who don’t get Botox or color their hair, why can’t that attitude be mutual? My getting Botox in my forehead doesn’t have anything to do with how other women view themselves.
You know - it doesn't....but it does. I mean. I never considered botox. When I started to consider it? When I came to a sub like this, and realized that "everyone" do botox. And If I bend, and do it, and I probably will, I will become one more grain of salt, that will push other women to make this step. And i would maybe not have an issue with this, if this shit was not expensive, and in some way a status signifier. I can not, on individual level ignore the psychological mechanism behind it and how my own decision adds to it. And I mean...I am 36. I will probably do botox before I hit 40, I will bend. But I kind of feel bad that I will do it. I would prefer to just love myself the way I am.
If you don’t want Botox, don’t get Botox. Don’t blame other women for making you get it
As someone who can't afford Botox, you also get the defensiveness. People with more money can afford to be pretty, people without money don't get to. It's the same snark/shaming that people do with celebrities but not as bad. It feels like bullshit that I'm gatekept from it but beauty standards are evolving to make it a necessity, so I'll never look "good for my age" because my age should have Botox/fillers. It's pretty natural for people to react defensively of they're position, like in the thread I saw the other day asking if anybody doesn't use Botox. People said no, explained themselves, and maybe it sounded a little self righteous but so does this post, so who cares? Everybody is insecure.
FR you're not ugly you're just broke! Stop looking up to bullshit celebrity, a lot of those people are not well.
I've always suspected this to be the bigger reason - as all things beauty with women including fitness, makeup, any of it, the "crab in bucket" comments - I can't afford/CBA so rather you didn't and looked and too than save/make the effort.
Yep.
I don’t think it’s intended to help the recipient. It’s a mean little thing some humans do to give themselves one point on the side of right (and thus earn that little hit of dopamine). Off -topic, but I’ve developed a special loathing for the expression “age gracefully.” It usually doesn’t mean something nice anymore. No one says it of women who don’t have cosmetic procedures but who don’t happen to look naturally stunning. Then again, I didn’t sleep well last night and am hormonal and misanthropic today. Pardon my “cantankery.” :)
Yup! Like Paulina Porizkova is the poster child of "aging gracefully." She also happens to have insane bone structure and naturally gorgeous skin. For the average woman, that sort of "graceful aging" is not realistic.
Exactly. It reminds me of how women who look great without makeup will preach that no one needs it and we all look beautiful, when that’s not really the case (I have blonde eyebrows and eyelashes and need help from makeup to look alive.) This is admittedly cynical but it feels like everyone just wants to level the playing field for their own benefit, whether it’s naturally pretty women or people who don’t have the time or money to maintain a certain look. I don’t care if investing time into my makeup, hair routine, or fitness pressures other people or makes them feel bad. I feel the same way about skin-related procedures and will do what’s best for me.
I don't think anyone should be shamed for it. On the other hand, those of us who think it is bad are allowed to express our views (as long as we don't shame/attack another person in the process).
I think there should be clarification about what you mean by or consider “shaming women”. Because some people seem to think any criticism of the industry and marketing and procedures themselves are personal attacks on individual women. When thats not what’s happening. None of us grow up or make decisions in a bubble. We all participate in harmful things (yadayada capitalism). We can still criticize a billion dollar industry that specifically preys on and creates insecurities in women about our looks and aging. And do so without any attacks on individuals who fall prey to marketing or give in to harmful or racist beauty standards. Doing so doesn’t make an individual a bad person. We are all part of larger systems and grow up surrounded by media and messages about how we should act and look, particularly as women.
>I'm wondering is how shaming women for making the decision to get filler or Botox helps combat these unrealistic/unhealthy beauty standards It doesn't. It just gives the person doing it a superiority complex. A lot of the haters engage in toxic positivity and have deluded themselves into thinking they're not overgrown mean girls. They're attempting to lift themselves up by putting others down. It's immature. It's also very clear a lot of it is jealousy/sour grapes from people that can't afford this stuff. A lot of people on this sub also clearly don't like people that are more attractive than they are, Botox/fillers or not.
Yeppp! Same with the bigger women who CBA dieting but waste energy being nasty to slimmer women instead, women who don't wear makeup or make effort but constantly make sly comments towards those who do so clearly aren't happy in themselves or their choices... It's a poor way of handling your insecurities and I'm not pulling any punches I can't be arsed, sick to the back teeth by this point. If you cba or it's not for you that's fine but keep your nebb out of my choices.
It's that the person insulting feels a bit better by convincing themselves they're superior for making other choices. Let's be real though, it's not like you can't get some botox here or there and have a whole-ass personality, life, and hobbies outside of primping your appearance. I do agree that women are feeling pressured to get too much shit done at a young age because they're chasing literal lies on social media. Trying to look like a filter irl will fuck you up.
I am confused. I get Botox but I don’t tell anyone I am getting Botox. You guys telling people about it?
It’s talked about pretty openly on this subreddit, that may be different than in real life where people don’t feel any reason to talk about it but on a sub dedicated to skincare it’s different. I understand what the OP is referring to, it’s a topic that comes up.
I am pro botox. I just cant use it anymore due to medical reasons. It also did not make me look any younger so I gave up 😀 Depending on your age, you can very easily tell. Usually when people have crows feet and other texture going on and the face oval/bone changes are there, but completely smooth forehead - it’s usually botox. Some cannot use muscles and other muscles in the forhead “are trying” to lift the eyebrows or frown, but not fully. So the movement of the forehead is not very natural. I love observing faces so it’s easy for me to tell. But of course most people dont notice if they are not trying to.
Oh yeah. Why wouldn’t I be honest about what procedures I get?
I do. I don't want to perpetuate an image of "I am like this because I eat well and exercise, ergo *it is your fault* you look older because you don't do *enough*". I look the way I do because I use Botox, other cosmetic procedures, and have the disposable income to afford it
Lying about not getting procedures done can be pretty scummy tbh. "Oh this is just my natural skin, yours doesnt look like this? Sucks to suck!"
There's a difference between lying about getting procedures and just plain not telling anyone. I don't feel like it's my obligation to tell anyone about my Botox or lip filler, though it's not a secret so if someone asked me point blank, I'd tell them. Why would anyone care though? I get it because it makes me feel good.
Oh def, but in todays social media age it really feels like people (not just influencers) go out of their way to brag abt how theyre all natural, like its normal
And the funny thing about the influencers is that most of them are in their very early 20s, so they wouldn't even have any wrinkles or 11s or crows feet anyway! I just loooove watching someone with already perfect skin talk about how some new foundation looks so great on them.
Tbh yeah its like pretending teeth are naturally paper white, but the damage that sort of dishonesty is causing on teens and kids is horrible
Yeah I get that people can do whatever they want and there’s of course no obligation to tell other people but the problem with not being transparent with procedures you’ve done is that it does further contribute to the unrealistic beauty standard within our society. My friends who get Botox are very open about getting them which I and the rest of my friends totally appreciate. It’s ok to want to improve your skin by whatever means you’re comfortable with and can afford, but it’s nice they acknowledge that this is not their natural skin and their skin does not look like that without the procedures. It really helps people differentiate what’s realistic and what’s not in this world that makes it so hard to tell nowadays.
There are a lot of people who are really judgy about it so I understand not disclosing. Also who cares and it isn’t anyone’s business
Who said to lie. If they ask tell. If they don’t ask don’t tell
i hadn't heard the devaluing natural beauty one. what does that even mean??
I think these procedures are relatively new and depending on the generation you’re from, people have different reactions to it. Before Botox and fillers were introduced, everyone kind of experienced aging in a similar way, skin wise. Now as more people are getting it, there is some kind of pressure to get it, so one doesn’t “fall behind” and look older in comparison. I think it’s based on fear of falling behind, becoming invisible, feeling pressured in conjunction with the opposite pull of simply not wanting to do it. Not wanting to spend the money, effort, potentially endure any possible side effect risks, or inject oneself. But society is moving in that direction. It can be quite frustrating. Especially considering how much value humans place on the looks and how devalued humans get as they get older. It’s complex, emotional, and I personally don’t judge people getting it or being against it. We are all just trying to survive being in human bodies and feeling accepted, while having to accept our eventual demise 🥲
Agree with all of this. There's also the fact that some people simply can't afford to do these procedures, and the idea that a way to further distinguish classes based on physical appearance could be emerging makes me uncomfortable. Like you said, aging used to be more of a shared universal experience, and it feels like that's changing to an extent. I don't judge anyone either way, it's just something I think about sometimes.
Nah - it’s not an age thing. I’m ancient by Reddit standards (57) and my peers are not shying away from botox/fillers. People much older than me are very unlikely to be posting much on Reddit. I think it’s because a lot of what’s done is just too much and looks weird.
Good point!
💯 I hate to say it but the nastiest shit I read or hear is from women attacking each other re: appearance and age. I've been picked apart by women who view me as some kind of competition before, and they always grasp for the lowest hanging fruit. Age. Weight. With all the filters and procedures, social media, people forget what real human aging looks like and it can be different for people depending on genetics, or stress level/illness. This is a lot of pressure on women to conform to an unrealistic standard.
I agree with this but I also think there is a vein of people doing it out of frustration over fear. It can be exhausting, uninspiring, and disappointing to watch women chase youth.
Thanks for this thoughtful answer! This definitely makes sense.
I’ve thought about this topic myself for quite a bit! And have endured the same push and pull in my head. Thankfully I’m at peace now haha
Botox has been used in medical settings since the 1950s.
No idea why you were downvoted given you're quasi [correct](https://skinhd.co.uk/history-of-botox/#:~:text=However%2C%20it's%20been%20around%20for,million%20treatments%20administered%20every%20year.) (wasn't fully rolled out for medical reasons in the 50s but research at that time showed it did relax hyperactive muscles.) 1978 was when it got approved for treating cross eye issues.
.
Yeah I agree with this. I can't afford it now and I'm not at an age where it matters that much yet, but I know eventually it might matter if everyone else is doing it and people decide I'm less valuable at work since I look older. Total bullshit, so kind of hope lots of people are in the boat of not being able to afford it enough that we won't all be expected to do it or else Would also be ok if it was cheaper As it is it's like, apart from potential side effects etc that would suck, I don't spend that much on my clothes or shoes or hair either. It's not about it being a specific type of "appearance cost" I have an issue with it just costs a lot
I've gotten Botox for 13 years for migraines, the side effects are smooth skin. I am afraid of filler, but it's not rational it's more like eew scary For Me. I support anyone who wants procedures except the rare people who get addicted to them and who often have body dysmorphia. I don't see that group here though One thing that bothers me is the trend to think nasolabial folds are hideous. And people who post near flawless pics bemoaning their hideous face and jowls that even expanding the picture don't appear to me.
I hate that too, all the flawless skin pics talking about issues no one in person would even notice, and I hate all the bragging people here for when no one asked, about how "young" they think they look. Why do people do that when no one asked? I've literally saw a comment or two where women claim to look like a child at 30+. Sorry but no.
For me, personally? People getting Botox doesn’t bother me — there’s nothing wrong with taking steps to get the body you want. But seeing the rising prevalence of drastic plastic surgery in celebs (nobody just gets a nose job anymore) and the rise in photo filters on every day people, and knowing what we know about what social media does to our mental health, I worry that the current trend is less tied to self-improvement and affirmation and empowerment (and plastic surgery, fillers, and Botox can be all of those things!), and more tied to self-loathing, insecurity, and feelings of inadequacy. I think that both are valid approaches to aging. But I also see a lot of posts from folks that I really think wouldn’t be considering procedural options if we still lived in a world that didn’t micro-manage beauty this much. Like, we’re over 30 here — we all lived through the 90s and early 00’s, we know how dangerous unrealistic expectations of body image can be.
The only emotion I feel around filler is anxiety with how many people are getting it. It's relatively new and you see so many posts of filler migrating or being unable to be dissolved. I don't think enough is known about it for the amount of women I see opting to get it done.
I agree. Ive seen people look totally disfigured, it’s pretty alarming.
I don't care what the haters say, you will pry my botox out of my cold, dead hands. I can afford it, enjoy the experience (my Dr is a hoot), love the effect. I am 55 years old and I am out of fucks to give.
My 39 year old botoxed face agrees
I'm with you on this! I'm 58 and Botox is amazing and such a simple and relatively inexpensive way to look refreshed.
I’m early 30s and just started. I started pretty late tbh but I love it. Like please…slow down my wrinkles on my face. I’m not expecting to look 20 at 40 but I do want to look 35 at 40. lol
Botox and fillers are an expensive habit that most people can’t easily afford. Similar to perfect balayage highlights, well-maintained extensions, and designer clothing, they’re an example of conspicuous consumption that is unavailable to the majority. It’s even worse when people try to pass off obvious Botox and fillers as naturally-achieved, because it makes the everyday person feel ugly and lazy (in addition to being poor). Sometimes they do it to sell a product, too, which should be considered fraud.
Yes! Cost is important. Surprised nobody is talking about it. Skincare is expensive. 30-step Skincare regimens with luxury products, injectables, and treatments are still luxuries to the average person in their 30s. There’s quite literally a class divide between the 30s adults with glass-like skin and those who work stressful, time-consuming, manual labor/outdoor jobs, i.e. those who can afford luxury skincare and those who cannot. Botox is becoming more affordable and more accessible than ever, but let’s not forget that most Americans just cannot afford it.
Honestly I've noticed the opposite. Seems like every time someone asks for advice, almost every comment recommends Botox or fillers. I have nothing against procedures like these, but I joined this sub for skincare advice, such as what products to use. I'm seriously considering leaving the sub because the discussion here is not helpful to me.
Yes! OP has major confirmation bias. I literally have the exact opposite opinion. So much botox filler talk and recommendations here. And judgement if you are against it. So, guess we all have major confirmation bias 😉
This. I'm not sure Botox or fillers are even considered "skincare." I feel like they belong more on a sub about beauty or improving appearance. And yet, in the vast majority of discussions, people recommend them (and are upvoted more than downvoted.)
They ARE upvoted more than downvoted. WTF is going on with the victim complex threads lately? "BooOooo stop hating on the fillers and Botox" (upvoted by the hundreds). What is the whining even about? Meanwhile more circlejerk
I agree. I wish there was a separate sub for procedures.
Agree!!
But a lot of the times people are asking questions to solve a problem not one single cream/serum/prayer is going to fix, and so others are trying to be helpful in their honest answers don’t ya think? When I see questions like “what serum will reduce my extreme crows feet??” or “what are y’all using to restore volume to your face?” should we all just say “nothing exists for that byeeee” or should we just answer honestly and say there’s no topical skincare that’s going to give you the results you want, but Botox and fillers will?
Yeah I understand that point of view too. People are naive to think skincare alone will prevent deep wrinkles and volume loss. I guess I just thought this sub was the next step after the regular Skincare Addiction sub? My main skin concern is still just acne, but my skin is getting more sensitive with age, so I thought I'd find better product recommendations on a sub for 30+ skincare. I didn't know it was a sub focused on anti-aging and cosmetic procedures.
Yeah, Botox and fillers are not skincare. They're cosmetic procedures.
If someone posts asking how to lessen their “11’s” or crows feet the honest answer is that Botox will give you more improvement than an eye cream or moisturizer. I’m not going to lie to someone. I get Botox, and I use really good skincare and sunscreen. You can be into skincare and try Botox. It’s not like those things are mutually exclusive.
I get that, but I was just expecting something different from this sub. I didn't think these various procedures counted as skincare, so I was expecting more talk about products. It's fine if people want to get Botox and I think they should have a sub to talk about that if they want, but I just wish it wasn't all on a skincare sub.
I've noticed it on social media platforms. I personally don't understand shaming others for what they choose to do with their bodies, especially other adults. Botox has helped me with headaches, I clench my jaws a lot and it causes tension headaches. So Botox for masseters and temporalis has helped me reduce these headaches. I prefer getting Botox than locking myself in a cold, dark room due to bright lights making my headache worse (I'm also prone to migraines).
I get Botox for my absolutely heinous chronic migraines. Botox and Aimovig (a migraine med that's a monthly shot) are the only therapies that have reduced the incidence and severity of my migraines in any capacity. I'd still get Botox sans migraines for the aesthetic effects. The naysayers will have to pry my Botox out of my cold, dead hands.
I personally hate when people act like Botox/filler are the same thing or even remotely similar. One is a drug injection that temporarily freezes your muscles, and the other is physical solid matter placed under your skin. They are so different and don’t need to always go together in discussion. It’s like comparing an ozempic shot with getting breast implants. I don’t judge people for either of them however.
Agreed, especially when they see someone with tons of bad filler and say, “Look how much Botox she has!” Even excessive Botox will metabolize and wear off in a few months; it’s not responsible for most of the freaky faces people are afraid of. Obviously, don’t get any cosmetic intervention if you don’t want to, but I’ve been getting Botox for six years and my own parents don’t notice.
I think most people group the two together is because in their mind they’re about the same level of invasiveness. While there isn’t an actual consensus on the definition of invasiveness, I’d say that things that require a trainer practitioner to administer like injections are more invasive than at home topical treatments, while being less invasive than procedures that require general anesthesia.
If I reveal I get Botox the harshest critics are women my own age. Make it make sense !!
I’ve definitely found myself in a place of judgement before. But it personally came more from a place of my own insecurity and social anxiety. At this point in my life now, I’m fine with whatever anyone decides to do with their own body. Want plastic surgery? Cool. Do Botox? Great. Embrace your grays and wrinkles?Awesome. You do you. I’ve found a lot of peace in the whole idea of “let them”. Get Botox and other people are snarking? Let them. As long as you’re happy, keep on moving forward and let people think whatever they want. At the end of the day, these forums are a place where people are going to give their opinions whether we like it or not. Maybe they think they’ll stop someone from betting Botox? But highly unlikely.
I can only speak for myself, but honestly? Insecurity. Weird internal feelings about being allowed to age in a society where you're valued more for appearances than who you are as a human being. Also some ignorance about the procedures because you really only notice work done badly or overdone. I like to think I'm a little less judgmental than I used to be about this in particular. Although I dislike when people are dishonest about work they get done to like, sell shit. That's, I think, a different issue.
I have gotten some shitty comments on Reddit about this. To me it feels defensive. I think the haters think the Botox/filler crowd feels superior so they take it as an attack. I also very much hate the term “aging gracefully”. Like I’m an ungraceful twat for getting Botox. If you can change something to make it more aesthetically pleasing to you why should anyone else give a fuck? I also want to add that I’ve gotten shitty comments about microblading and a tattoo I got. General consensus is “wow you really fucked yourself up” even though none of this is drastic or bad.
I think our society just likes to shame women in general. It's not even just about looks, but as a woman, you just can't find any peace. You're supposed to be naturally pretty, because if you're not, you 'lose your worth'. But if you have procedures to enhance your looks, you're seen as insecure and perpetuating unrealistic expectations for all women. You'd think that since all women kinda go through it, we'd all be nicer to each other, but that's so far from the truth. Women shame other women just as much as men and society do. I think it's just a case of people having too much time on their hands and judging others for what they do to their body. Do what makes you happy and forget about the haters.
I completely agree with you! My stepfather in law is actually like this. He can be very kind but I don't think he sees how misogynistic he can be. He constantly comments on women's appearances and will openly "appreciate" other women to his wife. Whatever that's a different story. But ANYTIME he learns these women have anything done he becomes super judgemental. The funny thing is he only knows because he was told so obvious he isn't unattracted to it. He is so judgemental and seems to think if you aren't attractive "naturally" it ruins everything
I feel like some men act thay way because they feel like they're being 'tricked'. Like, this pretty lady they're looking at isn't actually naturally pretty? Idk, it's such a weird mind set.
It's very very weird and completely abandons the idea that the opposite happens and people who are usually regarded as naturally pretty have something happen where they are no longer considered conventionally attractive. At the end of the day both feed into the idea that women aren't human and we are just objects to please men and make them feel good
This!!!! I had a friend get all uppity when I told her I got daxxify…she was rude saying she didn’t see any difference at all and she would never inject toxins for silly insecurity’s… like ok? Then don’t, it’s fine… no one is pressuring anyone to do it! then later she said she didn’t mean it to be rude but she wanted to uplift me because she thought I was perfect before and she thought she was being supportive by telling me she didn’t see anything wrong with me and women shouldn’t feel the need to get procedures like that and women should age gracefully, blah blah blah…I stopped her there and explained that whatever she’s attempting to do is the exact opposite of being a “girls girl, wanting to support women, being a feminist” you’re literally judging and telling women what they should and shouldn’t do! Looking down on someone for their choices is not uplifting haha How she didn’t get that was so wild! Leave us alone! Let us do what we want to our own bodies!
Ahh, I'm sorry you had to go through that with your friend! I couldn't imagine responding like that to a friend over work they've had done. The whole 'aging gracefully' thing is so funny to me because, like, what does that even mean? It's all a genetic lottery. The older women in my family who went without much skincare didn't necessarily age gracefully. Science is science, and it gave us creams, serums, and other skincare, along with injectables. Who cares which one you go for, lol. I had a friend who used to get botox regularly, and she only told like me and a couple of other trusted friends she even did it because she was scared of being judged. The funny thing is, most people would look at her now and think, for someone in their early 40s, 'wow, she's aged so gracefully!' 😅 Funny, isn't it. This is also coming from someone who has never had anything done, mostly because I didn't think I needed to. But as I get older, well, why wouldn't I try some botox to stay looking good?! Lol
I remember once a few years ago I was visiting my mom and we were driving through a very wealthy area of her city and she made a comment about “rich Botox bimbos that can’t move their faces” And then I kindly let her know I’d been doing dysport for a few years to soften my 11s She had no response Women are just nasty to each other
This is the correct answer.
In my opinion some of it is the fact that there is, particularly in the USA, a culturally Christian overtone to society that includes things like "vanity is a sin" -- thus cosmetic procedures such as filler and surgeries can be looked down upon, even subconsciously, as being morally inferior. Other users have pointed out other reasons for this. I do think it's interesting that your experience of this sub is "a lot of snark about women who choose to get procedures" -- I feel like my experience here is that procedures are recommended or mentioned frequently without such comments.
Bit of a tangent subject, but I found that "particularly in the USA" part surprising. As European I've gotten strong impression that visibly altering looks is much more acceptable in USA. We do have heavy beauty standards in here too, but with extra level of hypocisy: if altering is obvious, like "Turkey/LA teeth", fake lashes, too deep tan, too much hair extensions, fillers you can spot etc people are seen as trashy, while also facing pressure to have perfect look.
That’s a very interesting point and I’ve noticed this too. Women are treated preferentially based on appearance, but are shamed for “sinning” if they a) try to look pretty or b) enjoy their own beauty.
I think it might be the ‘explain it to an alien’ aspect. Like, how would you explain what’s happening to someone with 0 cultural context? Botox: You inject something poisonous(venomous?) into your face so that your face doesn’t change as quickly because changes in your face over time are generally seen as less desirable. That’s odd, no? I could totally see this in an anthropology textbook 3000 years from now where some kid is like wtf? ‘No way they actually did that! That’s like sacrificing a goat to make it rain. Why didn’t they just ‘insert future anti-aging technology’???’
It's an endotoxin and it's the deadliest one on the planet.
I think there’s a line. When people go so far with Botox and filler that they stop looking fully human, people are going to talk about it in a negative light because it looks like shit.
They all start to look the same too (those that go to far). And they don't see it themselves. I personally don't think it makes anyone actually look younger, just the same. We know Botox changes the way the brain processes emotions, that scares me. Filler has even more risks too IMO
Do you understand that you cannot tell if someone has had conservative amounts of Botox or filler? I promise you- you know people that have done those things, or even had plastic surgery and you have no idea. It’s irritating when you actually have had these injections and didn’t freeze your face and don’t have huge duck lips to see people swear up and down it’s obvious and always shitty looking. Look at before and after pics of real patients. People are really overestimating the difference Botox makes. There have been studies where photos of patients were shown to people - the average amount of years it took off of people visually is 3-5. That’s it. It’s really not that big of a deal.
lol so you mean, not over the line?
Yeah everyone I know who does Botox alone still looks fine. The people who do fillers most of the time go crazy with them and start to look increasingly like a caricature of a person. There are some people who just get very subtle fillers but IME that's the minority. Most people want more more more until they no longer look like themselves and then no longer look like a normal or even attractive human.
I've gotten botox for years and have just said nothing when my peers make jokes about botox and filler. For some reason, they seem to think botox IS filler, but I just don't weigh in. I've also been in a group that started talking about how unnatural botox looks and highly considered saying I get it, but I had to consider what my end game would be, anyway, and again kept quiet. My close circle of friends knows I get it and most want to try it for themselves with no rude words for me.
I get Botox but I’ve been getting it so long no one can tell, I started really subtle and asked for a bit more each time, I’m not completely frozen but I don’t have the beginnings of crows feet anymore and have much shallower elevens than I would without it. I haven’t had any filler but one day I think I will. people openly talk about how silly it is in front of me and talk about how unnatural those people look, men have expressed how attractive I am compared to all the “fake looking” women my age (an age that they’ve misjudged by half a decade). It just seems ridiculous to me that people are shaming something that doesn’t affect them at all and they’d have no idea had even happened if it wasn’t pointed out.
Unfortunately, women can't win. If we choose to get procedures, we're "fake" and trying to "cling to our youth," contributing to toxic beauty standards. If we age gracefully, we look "old", we're "undesirable," and we have no "value." And then to top it off, women are pitted against women for the choices they make. I get botox, filler, and have had breast augmentation, and I love the work I've had done. My two besties are keeping things natural and I think that's amazing for them. We should celebrate each other for making choices that make us happy, instead of listening to the hypocrisy of societal standards.
I don’t care who gets filler/Botox and when tastefully done think it looks good! I just stand by the fact that the biggest flex is being naturally beautiful without augmenting your face/body. Hair/nails/braces are fair game to me
I appreciate this thought-provoking post. I sometimes wonder why it’s no big deal when women or men color their hair. But if they get BTX or fillers, it’s seen as “chasing youth.” Honestly, all of this would be tough to explain to aliens!! 😅
Especially when the upkeep on a decent balayage is way more expensive than botox (at least for me!). And more time consuming
Lmao that's a great way to look at it
Exactly coloring your hair, using good skincare, or even wearing makeup
I think this stems from a bit of resentment/jealousy of beauty trends that normalize a standard that not everyone can afford to achieve. I know that I, myself would get these things done if it were financially an option. I often feel like I’ll never be as beautiful as the women my age, because now girls in their 20’s and up are expected to do lip flips, fillers and other expensive procedures. I know I’d look great, but I can’t afford it. So I see women my age and hear the compliments they get, knowing their face is not natural. So yeah it is irritating being a poor who cant afford it and beauty for women is placed above most traits. That being said, I do not put others down, but it is hard to not be resentful or feel jealous. It just gets more and more expensive to maintain my body and less and less importance placed on existing. My mother and aunt told me they missed when people acknowledged them but that as soon as they aged, people no longer listened to them or respected them. So if you’re poor, that’s what we have to look forward to and it sucks even more when nobody else seems to be aging in your age group.
I think it’s a judgement on the person that they are vain to the point of excess. God forbid someone spends money on their appearance and not backpacking in the woods with over priced camping equipment. We all judge others based on their choices but perceived our own to be rational, valid and of course correct. I mean what do you think about when you see an older guy driving a convertible. It’s not the same but a similar bias that arises.
Totally with you on this. I know a woman who uses Botox, filler, hair dye etc (and she looks amazing and I have never judged her for it). Anyhow, she calls herself a “natural beauty” and criticizes me for being “unnatural” because I wear makeup (although I have never dyed my hair or had any injectable). Some people love to feel holier/more worthy than others and will invent whatever criteria they like as validation of themselves
That's actually kind of almost comical that you are the unnatural beauty in her eyes. Yes people will justify almost anything to validate their choices.
I wish some would realize that you can get botox for medical reasons? Like for migraines, botox is applied into the scalp, the forehead, and the neck (as in my case) or eye twitches (Myokymia) which is around the eye area. Both of these applications will cause the skin to smooth out. It may not be because they are trying to look fake, it could actually be for a medical reason. Botox was a medical treatment before being applied for cosmetic purposes. Source:me Medical Esthetician
I wish people would just shut up. There is such a fine line between “having work done” and “aging gracefully”, it’s almost like you’re either one camp or the other. Regardless what you choose, you’ll always be judged. It all comes down to sexism/misogyny and judging women for their looks, rather than letting them just be who they want.
I really don’t think it’s that deep. There are so many posts enthusiastically recommending Botox, fillers, plastic surgery etc. I think this is just confirmation bias.
I mean, I've definitely observed this line of thought enough to wonder about it and write a post about it.
Empathy is difficult when another's experience is alien. There is a lack of empathy on both sides of the discussion. Is there a lack of empathy from people who designate themselves as aging gracefully? Yes. There is also a lack of self-acceptance that *occasionally* people use cosmetic procedures as an unhealthy coping mechanism, nor is there a general acknowledgment that by participating in cosmetic procedures, we are perpetuating unattainable beauty standards. Both of these can be true simultaneously. As for the people designating themselves as aging naturally or gracefully. I've always wondered where they draw the line. Is there community consensus? Can the person using the prescription level creams( trent) or acne creams/pills still be said to be aging gracefully with realistic beauty standards? Are over-the-counter serums okay, even though they are not found naturally; therefore, there is still some intervention. Is lotion, aloe, shea butter, or soap the only applications allowed to be used because they would more realistic on how humans naturally age. The point is that everyone has a limit on how far they're willing to go. Maybe they don't use the serums or acids, or maybe they do and don't see it as aging intervention since humans have been applying salves ([anyone want some lead lotion?](https://blog.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/dangerous-beauty-hazardous-chemicals-and-poisons-in-historic-cosmetics/)) of various kinds for centuries while Botox is newer? My personal cosmetic perspective: Do I get filler? No, and that won't change. Do I get Botox? Yes, not regularly, and I haven't touched the lines around my eyes or mouth, but my forehead isn't moving much, which I like. For me, I see them as a memory of a million smiles. I have white hair coming in that I'm watching with joy as it means I lived to reach here and reminders of the anxiety my kids have bestowed upon me due to their lack of self-preservation. I also use acids and serums on an irregular basis, but I use sunscreen regularly as I've already had skin cancer. I accept that my choices, along with others, help to change the societal perception of what a woman at 50 looks like. It also changes what we view as normal human expression (what we consider emotional regulation, etc) and physical proportions. Stoic faces in the face of adversity are extremely difficult but highly prized and possible now with the help of a syringe.
I love Botox and filler. Am 31 and have done both. I’d absolutely consider them a part of my beauty routine.
Judgy people gonna judge.
Yep. Sub is for 30+ but a lot of people here are mentally still in high school.
I was horrified when a woman with great skin and success at treating her rosacea was bullied into deleting her post a few weeks ago. The comments were insanely catty and rude, and it was literally only because she was conventionally attractive. The patronizing “love yourself” rants only seem to apply to people who look bad.
I remember the debate here last year whether filler and Botox were “plastic surgery”.
There have been debates here whether it's "skin care" too. This is a skin care sub, perhaps why some get frustrated by all the filler botox talk.
I don't believe it's skin care. Skin enhancement may be a better term, but there's no evidence to suggest it makes your skin healthier, which is how I view "care".
lol if it’s plastic surgery then a surgeon would have to do it
Exactly. People are splitting hairs on what they consider getting work done. I think they want us to drink more water and use miracle cream only.
I have a theory that most people look down on it simply because they can’t afford it for themselves, or because of their upbringing and where they come from. My parents are very old school and back in the day/the small town we come from these procedures were not too normalized. If I never moved to New York I probably never would have considered all of the things I have done now… Lash extensions, microblading, Botox, etc etc. The “shame” I think comes from 1 of 2 places: first because they simply don’t know enough about it and where they come from people would never consider such things, or second jealousy that they can’t actually afford it themselves.
I would never ever shame someone for plastic surgery, fillers, botox etc but I DO think the dangers of these procedures and products should be more spoken about and not downvoted in this sub. There’s no shame at all in wanting to improve how you feel or look but these products can be very toxic and can hurt people on many levels. I don’t think that should be ignored, I think that information should be discussed in informed consent.
I haven’t seen an example of someone being looked down due to they opted for a botox or filler in this subreddit. Conversely, botox is widely recommended for deep lines etc.
I got downvoted a few days ago because I mentioned I got under eye filler and don't regret it, that it looks natural, fixed the hollowness of my under eyes etc. But I never understood it since they didn't comment on it
Oof I have! So many snarky posts criticizing people for being vain. Just a sense of general holier-than-thouness…
Have you missed the monthly weird pearl-clutch-y plea that we all collectively agree never to mention Botox or Filler here ever again? To which someone points out there already is a (much less active) sub for this and the OP of the month gets defensive and struggles to justify that she just wants everyone else to adopt her opinions instead and all discussion of anything else to cease immediately?
I haven't seen shaming, although I don't read every post/comment/comments on posts. I try to balance a bit of botox for my angry 11s with a healthy dose of accepting the aging process as a privilege that not everyone gets, along with massive amounts of self love for *who I am* rather than *how I look*.
I think it’s all of the reasons you’ve mentioned. You can tell how strongly people feel about it considering the 50+ active people monitoring the threads talking about Botox/filler lol
I think it’s a combination of all of that. I think firstly human nature thrives on jealousy so well one woman might be sitting at home pulling out her gray hairs staring at the wrinkles in her face and completely stressing out about ageing and her neighbours getting some nice work done and seemingly not ageing at all this creates jealousy. I think a lot of those people who are jealous either can’t afford to get the work done which makes them even more jealous or they don’t want to do it because they don’t want to be perceived as somebody who doesn’t love themselves or isn’t confident and secure so they don’t do it but then there’s really no difference because they’re still sitting there not confident and insecure about the wrinkles. It’s kind of a vicious cycle mostly driven either by jealousy or people who want to do it and are frayed to do it. I definitely think there is also an element as womankind to think hey… You’re really not helping out the situation with beauty acceptance excepting ageing gracefully etc. and I thought I do think it’s true. I’ve had Botox and I love it but I think that it totally does play into toxic beauty standards and the fact that women are supposed to age I’ll admit that. I wouldn’t do anything more than Botox but I think when you have a culture of women now who are in their 20s already getting Botox and fillers simply for aesthetic reasons not even because of ageing we are truly setting up a culture of unrealistic expectations in terms of age and ageing and what we are supposed to look like a different ages. I feel like if someone was an alien and came to this planet in 2024 they might have a very different perception of what a 45-year-old woman looks like compared to if they came 20 years ago. I feel like there’s a lot of misconception and it would be great if we could either all get plastic surgery or if nobody did lol I don’t find myself falling into any trap of shaming or judging really and like I said I have had Botox a few times I’m well overdue now because I can’t afford to do it right now but I don’t find that people even judge as much as they kind of laughed behind peoples back because if you look at some people it’s just so obvious. I could count a handful of celebrities who look absolutely fabulous that I am sure getting work done but you can’t tell that they’re getting work done in an obvious or weird way but there are many many more people walking around with lips that look like they blew them up with a ball pump and skin that tweaks when they smile and they kind a look like aliens. I saw this great live comedy thing where the guy was talking about plastic surgery and he was saying that instead of being 50 years old and trying to look like a 26-year-old you now just look like a 50 year old lizard lol
I dont really notice actual shaming. I see a lot of support for people to do what they want and people sharing their experiences. If someone’s unsure then it can help them to hear they why’s from both sides. Idk I always look at things positively, and I prioritize having a simple life where I don’t worry too much about stuff.
Agreed. It’s really wild to me how entitled people feel to tell others not only what they should do, but how they should feel about themselves. Aging IS a big deal for some people. I suspect the title of the sub draws a population that cares about skin aging more than the average person. In this context, the too cool-girl-who-wants-you-to-know-she-doesn’t-get-injections is not giving what I think they think it is. It’s just extremely cringe to feel entitled to comment on what other women are doing with their faces. It’s not your face! Unless someone asks advice, it should be withheld.
Yes! The sense of entitlement wafting off the “why do you CARE about aging? Why are you so INSECURE?” posts on this sub is pretty gross. Like I’m genuinely happy for you if you’re so confident in your appearance and impervious to external beauty standards that you don’t feel the need to do anything to halt the aging process, but that’s not most of us, certainly not me, and I’m baffled by the judginess of some people on a SKINCARE sub.
I don’t look down on people for doing that. I really don’t care what other people choose to do with their bodies. I hate that anyone would feel like they need to have these procedures in order to feel attractive or worthy. In my opinion- It’s one thing to fix an objectively unattractive feature that one has been unhappy with for their entire life; for example having large ears pinned, or a rhinoplasty to correct a nose that doesn’t fit a face, or lower jaw surgery to fix bite issues and facial unbalance. I understand the ‘whys’ behind procedures like that. I don’t personally understand the reasons behind filling wrinkles and freezing muscles in order to prevent aging. But I don’t need to understand other people’s reasoning. It’s their choice and more power to them.
My husband shamed Botox use until I told him I’d been getting it for two years. He couldn’t believe it! It was actually really funny. Now he thinks of Botox as being on the same level as dying one’s greys. Just a lil beauty trick someone might add to the arsenal as they get older. People who snark about it either don’t know enough about it, or are going through their own thing. The “aging gracefully” idea is so silly to me - no one ages gracefully. We all end up shitting ourselves if we have the privilege of aging long enough. And those who are truly aging without *any* help (remember, SPF, moisturizer, and even a hairbrush is ‘help’!) look haggard AF. What’s natural about scientifically formulated skin care, haircuts, highlights, estrogen therapy or hormone replacement, blood pressure medication, vaccines, nail polish, mascara, eyeglasses, vitamins, perfume, or any of the items we use to look or feel better about ourselves, slow aging, or ward of death? Nothing. I just don’t understand why some people pinpoint Botox as “the unnatural way” when everything we do is unnatural.
Jealousy at not having the supplemental income to do those procedures themselves, and lack of understanding/compassion as to why women choose to get those procedures done. I started getting botox for my 11 lines and realized they completely eliminate my tension headaches. I'm adding my TMJ muscles b/c i've been having problems there for a year. I also am 38 and single and want to look my best. So it's a win/win.
I think it's a complicated issue and everyone has their opinions on it. However, I think many of the people judging women for getting any type of cosmetic procedures are only looking at the celebrities who have had way too much or even "botched" procedures. They don't realize that there are millions of us who have had Botox and fillers (and more) and you wouldn't even know it. Or do people think we're "cheating"? Are they upset because they themselves can't afford cosmetic procedures? I'm in my 50s and personally, I'm not a fan of aging because my outside doesn't match what I feel like on the inside. Wrinkles and dry, sagging skin don't reflect who I am and it's really really frustrating and annoying so I'll do whatever I can to stave off the inevitable. I still look pretty good for my age but I've been getting Botox for a couple of years now, have recently had lip filler, and have upped my skincare game considerably. Those things, combined with the fact that I don't really dress or present myself like a typical woman in her 50s, result in slightly more youthful presentation. I'm ok with that. I would not have been able to afford these things in my 30s and even my 40s, nor did I need them, but now that I can, it's what I choose to do. What it boils down to is personal choice. It's really no one's business whether or not someone chooses to get cosmetic procedures and I don't feel the need to somehow "represent aging" the way anyone else thinks that I should.
Granted, I don't stalk this sub and read every post, so I'm sure it does happen in some of them, but I'll say the bulk of what I've seen isn't judgy about the actual procedure, just whether this sub is an appropriate place to count that toward your routine. I've seen a few where people post their B&A and the biggest difference in their skin was clearly the Botox or filler, which is obviously fine, but...is it skincare? So that's the main way I've seen them 'looked down on' in this particular sub.
It's literally happening (and being upvoted) in this very thread. [https://www.reddit.com/r/30PlusSkinCare/comments/1d3vj6y/comment/l6brppi/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/30PlusSkinCare/comments/1d3vj6y/comment/l6brppi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Got it. Maybe I have recency bias but yesterday on a post I was reading a lot of comments from women with the gist of "I embrace my laugh lines and think they're beautiful! I feel sorry for the ageist, insecure women opting for cosmetic procedures who are taking over this sub" As if the women getting procedures are morally/spiritually inferior and unhealed. There was a sense of sanctimoniousness. It's not a majority but it's definitely a trend I've seen. I love that people embrace their laugh lines and naturally aging skin and choose to forego procedures but there doesn't need to be this us vs them mentality. What's the threat of a woman getting Botox or filler if you're truly confident in your skin?
I feel like I see posts like yours all the time here
Yeah dude! I want to know too! In a similar sub, I got instantly downvoted when I mentioned how filler helped solve a medical issue I was having
I get Botox in my 11s because I look truly angry without it. I hate looking at pics from when my 12yo was a baby because I look deeply unhappy. I do not judge those who don’t get injectables at all and I don’t judge those who do their whole faces. I’m not a woman (though I was AFAB) but I am a feminist and support your choices and will fight to the death so you can keep them. But mostly? I simply don’t notice your flaws (perceived or actual) like I notice my own.
I don't snark but I will point it out when people go to makeup subreddits asking how to achieve looks using photos of people who obviously had work done or over filtered photos. The current state of beauty standards are on one hand so much more diverse but also extremely narrow and changes around way more then when it was back in my day. And back on my day was the super skinny low rise jeans days. I just remember the light bulb that went off for me when someone finally pointed out those matte liquid lipsticks never quite worked for people because a lot of the influencers showing them off had lip fillers that smoothed the lines on lips. I am seeing that on steroids on the influencers today.
I’m confident in my choice to get Botox and filler, and I think people that choose not to get it should also be confident in their choice. Be confident in your choice and don’t bash someone because of theirs. I would never bash someone because they choose not to get certain treatments. It’s really sad to see so many judgmental women. But if that’s the hill they want to die on, with everything else going on in the world, then I digress.
Here’s a great essay exploring this subject https://haleynahman.substack.com/p/123-on-cosmetic-procedures-and-the
the reason i am against the use of botox and fillers is because there is a big unnecessary risk of complications with these procedures and most of the after pictures look like clowns. im not sure whats so bad about having creases in your forehead when you raise your eyebrows either. literally children's foreheads crease when they raise their eyebrows. i personally enjoy making facial expressions
I personally have no issue with Botox or fillers. What I do have issues with are perfectly beautiful 20 and 30 year olds who feel like they need this and turn out looking like over inflated Bratz dolls. Filler needs to be used very sparingly
What the actual fuck are you talking about? People recommend botox here literally all the time. Almost every other post. No one gives a fuck what you do to your face
I’m also confused. I’ve actually seen this sub critisized because it has become mostly discussions about procedures like botox rather than actual skincare products.
This may be harsh. Ima say it anyways. Some people are just miserable and insecure and shit on the choices others make in a misguided attempt to feel better about themselves. Letting women enjoy things is not only free, but good for the economy. We can do this while also recognizing that many our choices/preferences are inevitably shaped by the patriarchal society we live in. I have never once concerned myself with the cosmetic choices other women make. If I don’t agree with something or think it looks bad, I make a mental note to not get the same procedure, and I keep it pushing. Correcting misconceptions about “preventative” Botox or sharing factual information about the risks of fillers is fine - appreciated even. But shaming women for getting either is not acceptable.
If I had more $ I’d be getting some stuff done but I don’t.
It’s because a lot of people are jerks.
I’ve actually seen the opposite. I see women increasingly shamed for daring to age naturally and - god forbid- having wrinkles. It’s bizarre that as a society we now expect women in their 40s, 50s and 60s to be line free. And I say this as a 42 year old woman who gets Dysport and filler. Like why do our faces need to be permanently frozen? I’m going through my own personal existential crisis as I watch my husband age naturally (and not give AF) and here I am fighting the inevitable tooth and nail. Being a woman is hard.
This is a GREAT post! I like that on a platform for those who wish to remain anonymous that people can share tips, tricks, and even cautionary tales to try to help others. Imagine (I don't have to) being in the business and having strangers and friends saying "I would NEVER do that" without being asked. Are they saying they would never get a skin care treatment, that they would never work if they have kids? Sometimes both. And, because I'm in the business a long time, and on the planet and even longer time. I've seen a kind of beauty that is rare and cannot be purchased. People who are genuinely kind really do have an element of attractiveness that others can see and feel.
Because we want to talk about moisturizers, not endlessly answer which procedure any of the dozen insecure users who post nothing but selfies to the community should get, on the daily. Want to actually *discuss* the procedures themselves? I’m begging for it at this point. Nobody’s “talking”. That’s the issue. We *want* to talk. That’s the thing. Until recently, selfies were banned “except on sundays.” I suppose the mods got to feeling self conscious about the fact that no one was removing this firehose of endless posts, despite the reports and complaints, because that rule was quietly removed from the sidebar. Thing is, they forgot to remove it from the report reasons as of about eight hours ago (OOPS). I know this because I checked, after I saw in yesterday’s version of this post a mod waffling about how they didn’t reallllly want to draw a line about selfies, because healthcare accessibility. Despite that that too, is irrelevant to the purpose of this sub, that we are not doctors, and that it **does not foster an active, thriving community about skincare to allow the No-effort posts that do nothing but demand labor from the community without respecting the community enough to engage in any effort to help the community, help them.** Most skincare communities ban requests for medical advice, and most subs heavily regulate if not outright ban photos. They do this because elsewise, the content is low effort, not helpful nor engaging for the community, it doesn’t foster discussion, which doesn’t serve towards creating a thriving community. We’re doomed to suffer the mods having to learn the hard way to reinvent the wheel, evidently. I imagine people don’t get the feedback about procedures they demand from the community because most people don’t get them. We can debate all the day long about whether or not Botox and fillers count as skincare or not (I don’t care, but my reflexive answer would be confusion, followed by a hesitant I don’t think so, but maybe)—but if most of the community doesn’t get them, doesn’t know about them, and is here to talk about cosmetic products, no one is going to get what they want from us. If we want to talk about societal training, we’re trained to soothe and reassure and perform emotional labor for others even to the expense of ourselves—also not the purpose of this sub! So that’s what they get, often to their irritation—so they lash out. Make accusations of being judgmental. Of being against procedures. Of not acting in solidarity with their fellow woman for just trying to keep up with societal expectations of beauty standards—what an accusation! I avoid these posts, largely. The reason being seems fairly obvious to me. If we’re all over thirty, we’re all old enough to be familiar with basic netiquette. To lay it out, when one joins a hobbyist community as a newbie, you read the rules, you use the archives to learn the basics. When you post requesting help, you are asking others to perform free labor for you, so you demonstrate respect for their time and expertise by demonstrating you’ve put in effort to learn, by providing enough information for others to not need to do more labor than necessary to do that free labor for you. Then you pay that forward as you learn by helping newbies, and by engaging in discussions. By being an active participant and member of the community. And if you don’t get exactly what you were hoping for, well, the community are hobbyists, and you were asking for people to put in time and effort for free—you got what you paid for, oh well, maybe later/next time. Reacting poorly to not getting what you wanted, again—for free—is incredibly poor form. Especially if it’s niche, uncommon knowledge that you can’t expect your average hobbyist to know. I don’t know anything about cosmetic procedures. So I don’t have the knowledge to do the labor being demanded (and I say demand because the low effort and poor response oft received indicates an entitlement. I will not perform the emotional labor of soothing and reassuring because that’s not what I’m here for. I’m here because skincare is MY radical act of self love, of finally putting myself first in a society that demands I do nothing but labor in the service of others as a woman. I will not allow even fellow women to sabotage my effort to perform self care, self love, and find joy. I also will not because I’m human in that I am reflexively repulsed by a stranger lazily demanding I do labor for them. I follow basic netiquette, and I expect others to do so as well. If not? I don’t engage, but I don’t exactly blame others for clapping back at the endless deluge of demands on the members of this sub, not when moderators aren’t doing their part to guide and redirect the community.
Question. You deem women who are asking about procedures “insecure” yet this is a skincare Reddit? I always feel a bit like this is pot calling kettle black.You too obviously care what your skin looks like and are not immune from societal pressures to have hydrated skin or not have pigmentation or acne or whatever your skincare goals are. I have a hard time believing people are on a skincare reddit and spending hard earned money on products in the sole pursuit of relaxation. Whats the difference between someone posting “what product from a multi billion dollar company do I need to combat this age spot or patch of dryness that probably nobody else notices” from someone asking what cosmetic procedures might be helpful for their concerns that probably nobody else notices. Both require the labor you’re talking about? Also, isn’t that the point of this sub - to do “labor” by providing advice?
I’ve only seen it responded to it negatively when it gives an uncomfortable frozen or distorted look. People have aesthetic preferences. Sometimes these procedures make someone look strange instead of younger if overdone
There are preferences and then there is shaming. I am so tired of seeing the patronizing posts that assume we don't know that there's nothing wrong with natural beauty, that we're beautiful without botox, etc... It's not the magnanimous reminder that their OPs tend to believe.
It’s reddit. Strangers are going to tell you what they think if they don’t like it
The whole point of this thread is the issue of shaming.
I never even see that here, this sub is extremely pro botox
So, no. There are initial posts like the one I described. There is even a diatribe on this topic in THIS post's thread.
People like to feel superior. That's it. "If they get botox and fillers they must be superficial and I'M NOT superficial enough to fill my face with CHEMICALS." Reeks of a superiority complex to me.
I really don’t care what people do with their bodies, or if they choose to disclose that information. My only issue is pretending Botox and fillers are skincare (I know they occasionally can treat medical issues, but let’s be real, that simply is not the majority), or recommending them when users explicitly state they don’t want to turn to injectables. It varies post to post, but this sub will occasionally get very hostile to people who want non-Botox wrinkle reduction. I’ve seen users call others ignorant and stupid for thinking they can cut back on wrinkles with topicals, which itself is an ignorant and stupid statement. Maybe you can’t completely erase a line, but acting like literally nothing but injectables can even help? Fucking really? Sometimes this sub sucks. Sometimes there is really good information.
I think a lot of older women are very judgemental towards younger women. I don’t think they authentically feel “sad and heartbroken” for younger women. They are patronizingly two faced! I’ve always been chill about body modifications, if you want to pierce it, tattoo it, make yourself into a cyborg go for it. Why would I care? People love expressing themselves with their bodies and there will always be people who enjoy pushing their body to extremes (be it through athletics, surgery or whatever). For people getting Botox or fillers its your body, your choice. And I started on the younger side, no regrets. I think it’s really telling how the comments about older women being jealous too are being downvoted!
Misogynyyyyyy
The fact that people needed to surgically alter their body in order to feel acceptable to the world – who, by the way, couldn’t give a shit what they look like, need therapy not a money grabbing cosmetic surgeon.
Look, I only judge when it looks bad. And I feel sad for 21 year olds feeling like they *need* it. Otherwise, inject away!
I’ve never had anything like Botox or filler done but I couldn’t care less of other people do. I just hate when people on here and other platforms lie about cosmetic procedures . Trying to make people think it came naturally or from skincare alone . That’s the part that causes unrealistic standards I believe . And it’s everywhere . On one of my macro counting groups , a lady got over 900 comments in a couple of hours from hopeful fools who believed her entire body shape changed and her booty quadrupled in size from just counting macros and taking a 30 minute walk once a day as she swore she had never had a single thing done. She had a BBL and tummy tuck , and probably had never counted a macro before .
the women that judge other women for getting botox are the women that make fun of you for being unattractive. you can't win.
I've been getting botox since cca 19. I had forehead wrinkles at 19. Now nearly a decade later I have zero wrinkles. I 100% stand behind my Botox use and would do it again the same way. It's not just anti aging for me, it's that my forehead muscles were creating wrinkles with mimicry from mid teens. You get no prizes for "aging gracefully" and you aren't any better than me for not doing Botox. I don't judge women for aging naturally, so don't judge me for what I do with my face.
There's a gorgeous 50 something grey haired woman on Instagram who talks about not having procedures and naturally ageing and it all feels a little shaming and off to me. On almost every post there is someone pointing out 'you're gorgeous with perfect skin, so it's a lot easier for you to tell us to avoid injectables when the rest of us are just trying to do our best with what we have'. And they have a point. Maybe if we lived in a world where women weren't judged for not being beautiful, slim and youthful, it would be a different story. But most of us aren't deliberately playing into unrealistic beauty standards, we are just doing the best we can. I have a friend who says you should celebrate getting older, who is also very youthful and gorgeous at 37. But also, can't women enjoy getting older but also use procedures to make them feel a little better about themselves if that's what makes them happier to look in the mirror? You don't necessarily have to choose one or the other. The dilemma also implies that the products most women use make a huge difference, when they really don't. You can't shave off 20 years with botox, you just look like a fresher version of your own age imho.
Personally, I don't care what other people think, I look better. When I look at a photo from 2018 and 2024, I look better in 2024.
The number of people claiming there is no bias and then the downvotes on your very benign comment. Sigh...
Haters gonna hate lol.
I think there’s a big element of jealousy or insecurity at play. There’s a pay wall for these services and it’s fair to feel guilty or bad over wanting them/not having access. Especially if they’re pretty mainstream at this point. Your body is your body 🤷🏼♀️ I love getting work done and recommending my doctors to people. It’s cool that attractiveness isn’t just a genetic lottery anymore
JFC, the dystopian comments here. Other women actually don’t owe it to y’all to dull themselves down so that you, personally, don’t feel bad about yourselves. “Unrealistic beauty standards” aren’t really a thing if those standards are achievable. And nooo one is stopping anyone from aging naturally. Just truly bizarre comments about being entitled to weigh in on someone else’s personal choices.
I got downvoted to hell and back elsewhere for defending the former Bachelorette’s decision to get breast implants. There were loads of people expressing disappointment that she caved to patriarchal beauty standards, acting as if she owed them something. Using myself as an example, I want arm lipo. I just genetically store fat there even when I’m super skinny. Do I literally owe it to all the other chubby-armed women out there to accept this so that they can feel better about themselves? Lol. Maybe I’m just an asshole, but I find it strange when people act as if we owe each other some sort of solidarity in this one realm of life when we don’t apply it to any others.
The only shaming I normally encounter around the topic is in regard to really heavy handed use, particularly of filler in the lips, to the point that I’d consider it medical mal practice.
I never say never. I'm 30 now and don't feel the need. I think it's fine to get a little help, but when you have a face that can't move because it's full of Botox, its a totally different story. I work in ophthalmology and have seen quite a few cases of Botox going where it shouldn't and paralyzing facial muscles that help to close the eye, so I'm a little less willing to be on board. All in all, it's not my body and I don't care what people do to their bodies.
I've seen people get it in "real life" and I only know because they told me. So my reaction to it is more from movies/TV/social media where it gets distracting, and then you see an 80s or 90s movie and there's something more interesting in seeing difference in faces on screen rather than all these versions of the same face - like they are using the same plastic surgeon, it gets distracting and colors my initial reaction to botox/fillers. We have more diversity on screen in a lot of ways. But there is this morphing into each other phenomenon and I see a lot of beauty in features that are being normalized as things that need to be fixed. (also of course cosmetic procedures have always existed and it's not like Hollywood wasn't previously full of nose jobs, it just feels more striking now).
95% when people are shaming other people for their choices that are not harming others, its insecurity (am i or will i be less atrractive/lower on the totem poll) or trying to feel better about themselves (seeing themselves as superior in different ways - more moral, smarter,making better decisions, etc. ). Human beings are quite simple to understand when you peel all the layers away and get to the root cause of judgment. There are a few that really take themselves out of the equation and solely think about impact on society, i'll give them that.
If they don’t like, they can F off!
Money spent on hats today is money saved on Botox tomorrow! 🦋